Author Topic: Carlswark Dynamite series. (Read 22081 times)

AndyF · « **Reply #25 on:** July 13, 2005, 02:57:27 pm »

Hi Dave,

EDHC is definitely lidded as it is in the garden virtullay of the home, and is a "normal" shaft about 6 ft diameter.

I can't think what it is that you saw. There are a couple of shafts up there, Firset Shaft (lidded), Deep Shaft (Lidded with drums), an unnamed Shaft (Covered with concrete fence posts) and an unnamed run-in shaft right next to the wall. I wonder if the latter is what you saw. It is partly covered with corrugated iron, but is not 20' diameter..... It's also a long way from the Old Peoples home.

Mark · « **Reply #26 on:** July 13, 2005, 05:29:05 pm »

I really think it would be wrong to enlarge Porth Crawl, people dug up there in the seventies and eighties on a regular basis and managed ok, but I guess things move on and if the end justifies the means then fair play.

If you are up round hangover hole and rubble rift dont forget paracetem'ole further down the dale, biggish chambers lots of tight places to insert oneself, there must be a way on

I think Rob and co are playing with Farnsley Lane cave so leave that one alone

There is something big to find on that side of the dale

AndyF · « **Reply #27 on:** July 13, 2005, 06:18:39 pm »

Quote from: "Mark"

I really think it would be wrong to enlarge Porth Crawl, people dug up there in the seventies and eighties on a regular basis and managed ok, but I guess things move on and if the end justifies the means then fair play.

It's a fair point. I think making things just "easier" is wrong, but to allow a dig to be pursued beyond is more of a dilema.

Many digs (these?) have had to be abandoned due to difficulty of access or remoteness. One has to look case by case and balance the likelihood of finds with the potential damage.

Most remaining digs these days need shoring, equipment or power tools taking to them. This would be hard in Porth Crawl.

Porth crawl isn't "pretty", but widening it would change the character of the trip.

SamT · « **Reply #28 on:** July 13, 2005, 11:15:20 pm »

This could be the start of a huge and ugly debate that would deserve a thread of its own - Ive thought about starting it before - but darent. something along the lines -

"Have Hilti and Bosche spelt the end for 'Classic Squeezes' in all future caves - discuss'

or

"Retro capping - good or bad"

danthecavingman · « **Reply #29 on:** July 13, 2005, 11:30:08 pm »

I'm seriously going to think about the dig in EDHC before I even go anywhere near Porth Crawl. If EDHC is accessible fairly easily then the dig could be a goer. There is almost certainly more than just a connection with Carlswark on the cards having looked at the survey tonight and seen the distance involved.

danthecavingman · « **Reply #30 on:** July 14, 2005, 12:32:35 am »

I heard a story tonight that the reason Porth Crawl was named was that someone working in Porth Cawl used to supply the "Porth Cawl Rock" that came in "sticks" that was used to enlarge the said passage to passable size. Any truth or not?
I'm not planning to enlarge it but if it was persuaded anyway.....

Mark · « **Reply #31 on:** July 14, 2005, 07:23:50 am »

The passage was enlarged using the said rock. did you look at anything in Stoney last night Dan

bubba · « **Reply #32 on:** July 14, 2005, 07:31:10 am »

I always assumed the done thing was to enlarge the passage enough for the largest members of the digging team to get through.

Obviously this may create problems if the diggers are all skinnies, but hey, I've just accepted that to be the case and that there's some places I'll never get to because of my size. Although I sorta wouldn't mind if it happened, wouldn't it be a shame if every awkward bit of passage was enlarged to allow easy access for everyone?

Personally I think a bit of passage that had the treatment so long ago, should be left the way it is now, even if there is a tempting dig beyond.

AndyF · « **Reply #33 on:** July 14, 2005, 09:43:03 am »

Quote from: "danthecavingman"

..If EDHC is accessible fairly easily then the dig could be a goer. There is almost certainly more than just a connection with Carlswark on the cards..

Hi Dan,

I looked at my Stoney Survey last night. It doesn't show Picnic Passage, but extrapolating from the Carlswark Survey in CoD I would estimate that the distance between the dig in EDHC and Picnic Passage is around 30-40m.

EHDC dig, Picnic Passage and Ivy Green Cave all "point" into a big block of limestone with no known cave. All of these are, however, silt filled at their terminations.

CoD says that beyond Porth Crawl are "run-in shafts", raising the possibility of an entrance beyond it... Probably why the miners didn't enlarge it.

danthecavingman · « **Reply #34 on:** July 14, 2005, 12:18:17 pm »

Went out last night with the intention of having a look at the Dynamite Series going in via the Flowerpot. A short hunt around found the entrance very easily so we got changed and prepared to go down. The barrels in the top of the shaft are fine, not squashed at all but the entrance is snug to say the least! Caver Mark went down, I watched from above. The shaft dropped down three blue barrels and then ended at a collapse where the way on in the floor was full of rocks but a void could be seen. Myself and Mark decided that time spent digging out this entrance would be worth while. In the meantime we sent Rob in through the Gin entrance to see if he could find the other side of the collapse from Falls Chamber. After maybe a dozen largish rocks had been hauled out, the way on was revealed to be through a very squashed barrel. The problem was that between the bottom of the third entrance barrel and the barrel in the floor was 2m of loose hanging material (Two of the walls were solid, two made of choss). Mark was not prepared to go down the barrel not knowing how collapsed it was beyond and fearing that the stuff where he was might run in so he struggled out and we sat at the top waiting to see if Rob might turn up.
After a short while we heard shouting and the glimmer of Robs light appeared through the bottom barrel. He reported that where he was the barrel appeared secure with plenty of solid rock around it but that there was a debris slope leading up to the barrel and some timbering holding some choss in place. We told him the situation on our side and Rob decided that rather than going back out through the Dynamite series he would have a look. So Rob appeared through the squashed barrel which was snug and awkward. He wasn't amused when he saw the hanging stuff but managed to get out without distrubing too much more.
We concluded that what had happened was that the bottom barrel of the four drum shaft had fallen at some time in the past and had then reconsolidated itself where it landed, being backfilled by stuff collapsing from above. The rocks that mself and Mark removed were presumably wedged behind the barrel before it fell.
The Flowerpot is currently dangerous and not a viable way in to Carlswark. There is a substantial risk of the bottom of the shaft running in further. Additionally the barrels were found to be very awkward to get out of!
Andy - how did you dig this entrance originally and how long did it take?
After last nights trip we thought that you could excavate the barrels and shore up the rift temporarily. Stabilise the bottom 6-8 feet then put bigger concrete rings in (which I think we have) and then back fill the excavation to make it all solid again. It would be a worthwhile project as it is a good way in to the far reaches of the cave.

Dan.

AndyF · « **Reply #35 on:** July 14, 2005, 12:30:52 pm »

Hi

We dug a gert big 'ole to get through, which took two days, then placed the barrels (which were not squashed!), and refilled round. That took just a few hours. To re-excavate and sort it out would not take long, as the surrounding "fill" will still all be loose rocks that should just lift out. I reckon a keen group of three or four could do it in a day. The key thing (which we know now) is that rock fill will settle, and hence the squashing problem. To avoid this, mix lots of wood and planks in with the fill to stabilise it. If this was done, I think the barrels would be ok to re-use instead of concrete rings.

I think this is a worthwhile thing to do, as it provides an interesting through trip as well as helping access the digging potential.

I'd be up for helping, plus could press gang some others, if it was an evening or w/e...

danthecavingman · « **Reply #36 on:** July 14, 2005, 03:58:06 pm »

Andy,

Sounds good to me, I have interested parties at my end so we could get a team together for sure. The big question would be when....

BTW had the bottom barrel slipped or not?

Dan.

AndyF · « **Reply #37 on:** July 14, 2005, 04:03:06 pm »

Yes, the bottom barrel has slipped. They were right on top of each other.

I haven't seen the current state, but it may be possible to stabilise things with some mortar/cement, then just deal with the bottom barrel itself.

I work in the week, but can do evenings easily. I might go take a look myself, and have more of an idea how to tackle it.

BTW if you think the barrel is tight, you haven't seen Porth Crawl yet :shock:

Cave_Troll · « **Reply #38 on:** July 14, 2005, 04:20:28 pm »

Well have you met Dan recently? He's a bit tubby :-)
If i don't see you in the pub tonight Dan, i'm up for helping

SamT · « **Reply #39 on:** July 14, 2005, 08:46:28 pm »

Cool - possibly the first net driven digging team.

Go UKCavers.

Cave_Troll · « **Reply #40 on:** July 15, 2005, 08:41:50 am »

when and where?

cavermark · « **Reply #41 on:** July 15, 2005, 12:47:42 pm »

Something needs sorting with Flower pot because there's enough unstable stuff to bury someone in a fatal way at present. I think there's also an issue with it being close enough to the road that passing drivers seeing cavers using it might provoke a numpty to poke around and bury themself.
So options are;
a) Stabilise it so it's safe.
b) Fill it in.
c) Put a lid on it until someone is motivated to do (a)

Option (a) is only worthwhile if people think it saves enough time to access digs. Therefore (c) could be the short term solution.

In terms of the barrels they aren't especially tight (where they aren't squished) but those with long legs find passing the narrower "necks" going up quite strenous. If its to be redug and lined perhaps this would be a way - Cut the barrel tops off so you have a parallel tube to made an easy ladder climb. to stop the barrels squishing insert some steel hoops to keep them round. I could make the hoops up and have a couple of barrels that could be added to allow for the extra length required.
OR.. an even more permanent option - use the parallel barrel tube as shuttering to pour concrete around (easy access from road for the generator, mixer, etc., which I could supply if needed).

Seems we might have re-opened a "can of worms" but maybe that should be spiders - there were some big round egg sacs and gnarly looking ones all over the place.

SamT · « **Reply #42 on:** July 15, 2005, 01:23:20 pm »

Thing is though - use anything metal, scaff - steel hoops etc or wood - and in 15 - 20 years time (maybe even sooner) - they're knackered/rotten and dangerous and your back to square one. (UM - very much like whats already happened (no offence Andy)

Use stone and concrete - it only gets stronger with time (as it calcifies)

For moorfurlong shaft - we used concrete 'gravel boards' and their associated posts. (you know those fences you see with vertical posts and concrete panels 8ft by 1 foot slid down between the posts)

Use the posts as lintles - and you stand the panels upright - then can then be 'capped' with the posts laid horizontal to secure everything in place.
We then backfilled with dry mix and rubble. I'll post up some photos of the moorfurlong construction later.

Thinking about it - if your close enough to the road - you can get wet concrete delivered right there and pumped into place - cubic meter of concrete is 80 quid (ish) and it goes quite a long way (especially when mixed with loads of limestone rubble.

failing that - there is the DCA petrol cement mixer - available for just such projects.

SamT · « **Reply #43 on:** July 15, 2005, 01:24:21 pm »

:oops: there I go jumping the gun again (see avatar)

should have read cavermarks post.

So we're agreed - concrete is the way forward then

danthecavingman · « **Reply #44 on:** July 15, 2005, 02:20:16 pm »

What are people up to next Wednesday evening? I was thinking of going down Eyam Dale House Cave but it's unlikely I will get the proof of insurance I need before then.
How about a working session on Flowerpot? Basically if the barrels are staying (no reason why they shouldn't), then what needs attention is the base of the shaft. Materials shouldn't be too hard to come by. I'm not certain exactly what we would need, Mark may have the best idea. Things like concrete, expanding foam and that sort of stuff are easily obtained. I reckon I'm up for it, Mark if he's not away, Rob will be, possibly Cave Troll. How about you Andy? The biggest question to my mind is what will we line the base of the shaft with. I'm not sure the squashed barrel is suitable any more.

Cave_Troll · « **Reply #45 on:** July 15, 2005, 03:05:15 pm »

i'm available next wednesday evening... might need to plan a bit first. concrete etc...

SamT · « **Reply #46 on:** July 15, 2005, 05:37:43 pm »

Quote

The biggest question to my mind is what will we line the base of the shaft with.

errrrmm - see my post above ?? re concrete fence panels ??

here are some photos of what we did with moorfurlong.

AndyF · « **Reply #47 on:** July 18, 2005, 08:38:20 am »

Unfortunately, I'm working in the South this week, so I'm not around on Wednesday.

My thoughts on this would be to probably dig out all the barrels and do the job properly. I think it would be too awkward/difficult to just do the bottom one, (and dangerous from the sound of it).

When we dug in, we wern't exactly sure where to dig, so excavated a very big hole. The hole has solid walls (its like a rift) and the fill will be very loose, so a few people could empty it quite quickly. The far side, (under the tree) is also fairly solid.

Good loooking job on Moorfurlong, BTW...

AndyF · « **Reply #48 on:** July 20, 2005, 12:21:05 pm »

Actually, I'm back in Matlock now, so I am avaialable tonight.Are people still going, if so what sort of time? 7 ish?

danthecavingman · « **Reply #49 on:** July 20, 2005, 01:12:38 pm »

I am currently set for a trip down P7 tonight, it's so dry that if the sump is ever going to drop then now will be the time. Fancy coming?
How about the Cave Troll?