Author Topic: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things  (Read 118378 times)

Online Ian Adams

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Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« on: March 16, 2013, 09:07:23 am »
Global Moderator Comment New thread for general discussions not directly relating to Carno.

The topic was the loss of access to a system and there was a suggestion mooted that we might want to look at access with CROW and some other cases. I only added an extension of “being controlled” to the loss of access (I feel in some cases it sits harmoniously) and the quote you have cited was a response to a question/challenge on precisely that.

I hardly think I have indulged in any “wild rantings”, on the contrary I feel that I have adopted a view point held by some others and supported a proposal which has arisen directly as a result of this threads raison d’etre. In short, I believe I am addressing and commenting on issues that are central to the topic.

Droid, no, but I guess I should not answer specifically for further for fear of being “off topic”.  :doubt:

“loss of Access” (on topic) can be “lost” (diminished, made very difficult or become impossible) by a club/body or group imposing it’s own conditions/criteria (having persuaded a landowner that their way is the right way) to some cavers. I am sure any experienced caver can name examples without me having to.

Ian
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 06:40:26 pm by Rhys »
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Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2013, 12:07:41 pm »

I hardly think I have indulged in any “wild rantings” ...


Oh, I dunno, I suspect that there are some who might, just, possibly, think that your use of Gestapo style policing would fall into that category.

I could be wrong, though :)
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Offline langcliffe

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2013, 12:22:10 pm »
Oh, I dunno, I suspect that there are some who might, just, possibly, think that your use of Gestapo style policing would fall into that category.
I could be wrong, though :)
Was it not just an inevitable manifestation of Godwin's law?

Offline steviet_scg

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2013, 12:54:51 pm »
Oh, I dunno, I suspect that there are some who might, just, possibly, think that your use of Gestapo style policing would fall into that category.
I could be wrong, though :)
Was it not just an inevitable manifestation of Godwin's law?

 :clap2: Brilliant

Although when it comes to negotiating access then Hofstatder's law may be more applicable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstadter%27s_law

Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2013, 01:09:08 pm »
But Hofstatder's law applies to complex tasks; according to the OP negotiating access is a simple job; all that has to happen is that a landowner has to agree to give cavers, i.e. him, whatever they want.

Simple.
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Offline JessopSmythe

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2013, 01:24:20 pm »
I'm still waiting for an answer from Jackalpup. I asked who he thought should negotiate access and, at the end of a long rant about who shouldn't, he still doesn't tell us who should.

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Online Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2013, 03:38:18 pm »
I already suggested I would much prefer either the BCA or the CCC were such a "body" to exist.

Failing that, I get the impression from David that he was proposing some form of unity be brought about to look at and address access issues - if that were the case and if such a "body" were formed, I expect that "body" would be less biased in favour of their own individual (club)  preferences and more representative of "cavers" in general (as I expect that would be their mandate).

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Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2013, 03:48:29 pm »
I already suggested I would much prefer either the BCA or the CCC were such a "body" to exist.

This sentence doesn't make sense, given that both BCA and CCC do exist.
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Online Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2013, 03:51:30 pm »
Please stop being pedantic Graham.  You know exactly what I mean.

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Offline droid

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2013, 04:26:05 pm »
Graham might, but I'm buggered if I do.... :lol:
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Online Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2013, 04:54:37 pm »
The BCA and the CCC exist as entities but their mandate is not to seek and secure access to “any old hole” on behalf individuals, clubs or groups. They may do so (and I know they do) where they consider it appropriate but they do not exercise any authority, per se, to supersede individuals, clubs and groups where those bodies are already negotiating or have negotiated access.

Since there is no “body” in existence whose raison d’être would be to secure unbiased access for cavers , Jessop asked who I would propose take on such a role. I suggested the BCA (and/or the CCC for Wales) as I consider them to be both appropriate and unbiased in the absence of any other apparent alternatives.

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Offline droid

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2013, 05:12:20 pm »
Might the CNCC or CSCC be better alternatives, or are they part of your conspiracy theory?
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Online Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2013, 05:42:38 pm »
I don’t have any conspiracy theories. I was supporting David’s original proposal;

Quote
Does anyone agree with me that cavers collectively should be trying to mount some kind of campaign to get it restored - not only to Carno but to other affected caves, both in Wales and other areas?
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Offline droid

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2013, 05:49:20 pm »
You do with regard to Club control of access.

And while I might have sympathy for Dave Rose's wish list, I don't think that it will happen any time soon. As it is, the CNCC and CSCC do a pretty good job IMHO.

Ogof Draenen may well be a farce, but that doesn't apply to all Club/cave situations.
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Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2013, 06:12:21 pm »
...but they do not exercise any authority, per se, to supersede individuals, clubs and groups where those bodies are already negotiating or have negotiated access. ...

Indeed they do not and an ounce of research would lead you to discover that their constitutions do not permit them to muscle in on pre-existing access schemes and and ounce of thought would have you realise why. I really, really hope I do not have to explain this. I cannot believe that anyone involved in caving does not understand it.

Do you know how many separate access schemes there are on Mendip that are not negotiated by nor administered by CSCC. The short answer is most of them.
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Online Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2013, 06:20:39 pm »
Droid,

Please don’t tell me I subscribe to conspiracy theories – I don’t.  I know of a number of instances that I would consider “unsatisfactory”, I also know of a number of instances that I would consider “satisfactory” and I also know that there are an even greater number of instances that I have no clue whether access is satisfactory or not.

I posted earlier;

Quote
David did say "in certain cases" ....

I do have an issue with “some” bodies (clubs or otherwise) ....

I have not questioned your judgement or opinion on CNCC, CSCC or Draenen and I am very well aware that any issues surrounding any of the three you have named are hardly likely to apply elsewhere.


Graham,

Yes I know. I was making the point that they don’t do it – not arguing it.


Ian
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 06:43:03 pm by Rhys »
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Offline graham

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2013, 07:01:11 pm »
ian

You miss the point. They do not exercise that authority because they do not have that authority. Any attempt to acquire such authority would be bound to end in acrimonious failure.
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2013, 07:04:01 pm »
And en route it would entail hysterical comedic value.

Online Ian Adams

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2013, 07:20:23 pm »
ian

You miss the point. They do not exercise that authority because they do not have that authority. Any attempt to acquire such authority would be bound to end in acrimonious failure.


Graham,

I am not in disagreement with you and have not disagreed with you

 Ian
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Offline bograt

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2013, 08:26:40 pm »
And en route it would entail hysterical comedic value.

 :lol: :lol: :lol: Yea, good in't it Chris. dus't think we could show these young Jackalpup's a thing or two, up 'ere in't Peaks.  :) :)
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Offline NigR

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2013, 10:52:38 pm »
Bloody hell, Rhys - I'm not even sure which thread to post on now!

Tell you what, I'll post on this one but if you want to move it to the other one then feel free to do so. Fair enough? (But please don't ban me if I've done it wrong.)

I have never met Ian and know very little about him other than that he is based in North Wales. Judging from his posts, he talks a lot of common sense and it is clear that he has direct experience of the vagaries of the access system in the area where he has chosen to live. As such, I think his views are relevant when applied to a different area, particularly when parallels do exist.

I am not questioning your decision to moderate this thread by splitting it and beginning another (although, as I have already said, I do find it somewhat confusing) so you cannot ban me on those grounds. I do, however, take exception to your description of Ian's views as "wild rantings". You attempt to justify this by quoting (completely out of context) one particular comment he has made. By doing so you have most decidedly knocked him out of his stride, at the same time taking attention away from any validity his arguments might hold. The other thread has already been taken over by people whose only intention is to bring scorn upon someone whose views do not match their own. I dare say one of their number is at this very moment wading through forgotten caving journals from days gone by trying to unearth something else with which to discredit him.

Sorry, Rhys but I am very disappointed that you have felt the need to resort to tactics such as these. (Will I get banned now for saying this?)





Offline Rhys

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2013, 09:13:21 am »
Nig

Given that your last post does not relate to Carno, I've moved it to the new thread.

I've been in correspondence with Ian/Jackalpup. Though not particularly happy, he is prepared to put this issue in the past and move on.

I was just trying to keep the general access debate separate from the Carno issue. Drifting of topic is natural and expected on forums. Ian certainly wasn't the first to stray off topic but his lengthy postings were going to far. Perhaps I should've split it sooner.

I'm not adopting any sort of "tactic" here, just trying to keep the two debates separate. There's no desire to silence or censor anyone. Even Ian's comments comparing access controllers to the Nazis have not been deleted or moved!

Rhys   
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 10:02:56 am by Rhys »

Offline NigR

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2013, 10:45:16 pm »
No problem with moving the post, Rhys - thought you might want to!

Glad to hear that Ian has not been put off because I genuinely do think his contributions add to the value of the debate.

Yes, I do accept that it is difficult to decide how far to allow a post to drift off topic. Taking this to the extreme, if you look at the OP's first (and only!) post in the other thread he actually mentions three distinct things - the Carno situation, other recent events regarding loss of access in South Wales, Cambrian Caving Council's involvement (or lack of). Perhaps you should have split these into three separate threads from the very start?!

On a general note, the major problem (in my opinion) with deliberately moving any thread to this section (i.e UK Caving) is that it tends to quickly get subsumed and lost amongst the multifarious other topics. This has certainly happened with threads concerning access in the past. Perhaps a better option would be to create a separate section entitled "Access"? Failing that, how about changing the title of the Conservation section to  "Conservation and Access"? I would be grateful if you could give these proposals serious consideration.




« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 07:54:20 am by Cap'n Chris, Reason: Final sentence removed following reporting »

Offline notdavidgilmour

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Re: Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2013, 07:48:19 am »
Having read the original thread as well as this one.  Well done to David for raising the issue.  I fully agree with posts made earlier in the thread that the CCC should be doing more.  It's a shame this topic has been split but hey, that's in the past.  Jackalpup & NigR have some very valid points and talk a lot of sense.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 04:20:56 pm by Rhys »
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2013, 08:00:58 am »
Global Moderator Comment Keep it civil - recent reported inflammatory posts removed. Access is/has been a heated topic within caving ever since caves were invented but don't let your emotions run through your fingertips and keyboard onto this forum; that's what pubs are for.