Author Topic: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things  (Read 123323 times)

Offline graham

  • Retired
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 10942
  • UBSS, Speleo-Club de Perigueux, GSG, SUI
    • UBSS
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #675 on: April 01, 2013, 08:58:43 pm »
damian

I'm just waiting for one of the usual suspects to admit that they actually believe it's their god-given right to dig wherever and whenever they like.
Caving is for Life not just for Christmas

Offline NewStuff

  • Vocal proponent of Open Access
  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 795
  • www.dddwhcc.com
    • Deep Dark Dirty WetHoles
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #676 on: April 01, 2013, 09:09:02 pm »
I'm bowing out. I just want to go down a hole, not argue.

Rubbish.

You've been adopting a belligerently rabble-rousing stance since you joined this forum. Bought in as cavalry for your club-mate, you've failed to sway those that disagreed with IA, now you're going.

Cue longwinded response from IA ;D

No, not rubbish. I joined the forum long before this particular set of shenanigans kicked off. Try checking your facts before You put fingers to keyboard.

I feel strongly about this subject, and what I do is entirely off my own back. The fact that I happen to be in the same club is not relevant. I am no-one's puppet, so back the fuck off with that particular line of bullshit.

As for rabble rousing, I suppose You could see it that way. Something rather obviously needs to be done about the current situation, because as it stands, it smacks of elitism and petty school ground gang wars.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 09:38:44 pm by NewStuff »
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2340
  • WMRG
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #677 on: April 01, 2013, 09:20:40 pm »
Facts.

First registered 12/8/11

First post 18/3/13
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline NewStuff

  • Vocal proponent of Open Access
  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 795
  • www.dddwhcc.com
    • Deep Dark Dirty WetHoles
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #678 on: April 01, 2013, 09:25:20 pm »
Sorry... try again.

You're wrong on that, shut up about it, You're looking stupid. Note the date...

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=12104.msg159511#msg159511
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2340
  • WMRG
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #679 on: April 01, 2013, 09:30:24 pm »
Sorry, sorry sorry.....missed ONE post.... :lol: :lol: :lol:


And you look so jovial on your club forum..... :lol:
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline NewStuff

  • Vocal proponent of Open Access
  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 795
  • www.dddwhcc.com
    • Deep Dark Dirty WetHoles
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #680 on: April 01, 2013, 09:35:47 pm »
Sorry, sorry sorry.....missed ONE post.... :lol: :lol: :lol:


And you look so jovial on your club forum..... :lol:

The one post that makes You look stupid.

Don't make veiled threats, just say it as it is, If you are trying to be smart and say "I know what You look like" then please do. I'll help you by posting a far better resolution version of it if You are that interested.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline paul

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4486
  • Orpheus CC, NPC
    • Orpheus Caving Club
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #681 on: April 01, 2013, 09:40:32 pm »
Global Moderator Comment Can we please calm things down and get back on topic?
I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are missing!

Offline Stuart Anderson

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
  • Yorkshire Subterranean Society - A.N.U.S.
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #682 on: April 01, 2013, 09:45:57 pm »
damian

I'm just waiting for one of the usual suspects to come up with something more than "a hunch" that a landowner might reject all requests to dig on CRoW access land if access to CRoW caves is granted.

There you go Graham, fixed that for you...

 ;)
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline Pete K

  • Pete Knight
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1612
  • DCA, PICA, TSG, DCRO, PDMHS, DCMC, YSS
    • Peak Instruction
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #683 on: April 01, 2013, 09:55:30 pm »
Can we please calm things down and get back on topic?
Here, here.
The access debate always seems to attract heated exchanges, no matter the sport. Despite strong feelings I'm sure it is better for all of us to behave like adults and not squabbling kids. This does us no favours when we wish to show we are responsible enough to negotiate with landowners.

I understand the fears about landowners not wishing to grant permissions for digs, that doesn't mean I agree totally. In Derbyshire a small hole called Titan was dug into on private land. Okay, not CRoW, but it still needed permission. Regardless of the legal status of the land, permission for digs always needs to be sorted. Some will be refused, as has happened since people started digging no doubt, some will be accepted. Did the 3 counties teams have permission from all concerned landowners? (Not a pop at them but they'd still have needed it even if caving was accepted as an included open-air activity).

Offline graham

  • Retired
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 10942
  • UBSS, Speleo-Club de Perigueux, GSG, SUI
    • UBSS
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #684 on: April 01, 2013, 09:56:04 pm »
damian

I'm just waiting for one of the usual suspects to come up with something more than "a hunch" that a landowner might reject all requests to dig on CRoW access land if access to CRoW caves is granted.

There you go Graham, fixed that for you...

 ;)

have you ever negotiated digging permissions on access land, stu? I have.
Caving is for Life not just for Christmas

Offline Stuart Anderson

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
  • Yorkshire Subterranean Society - A.N.U.S.
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #685 on: April 01, 2013, 09:57:21 pm »
Thank you Peter. My thoughts exactly.
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2340
  • WMRG
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #686 on: April 02, 2013, 03:45:13 am »
Sorry for diverting the thread but I find it very difficult to take bullying proseletysing seriously.

Yes, PK is right. Access discussions DO get heated, which is why I think it's better to take a measured approach rather than go on a Crusade for Access. Quiet diplomacy, whether at club, regional or national level seems to have largely worked so far. Maybe it's the way to go with regard to CRoW. One thing I'm certain of: epithet strewn rantings won't win anyone over.


No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline blackholesun

  • menacing presence
  • **
  • Posts: 223
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #687 on: April 02, 2013, 10:52:38 am »
Can someone involved in BCA elaborate on this for me?
As the deadline for a submission of an item for the agenda of the 2013 AGM has passed, does this mean that this issue (CROW and caving) will not be discussed there? If it can be, in what detail could it be?

If it can't, then waiting until mid 2014 to discuss this, at the AGM of a body with no legal standing, who produced The Report on caving and CROW, does not seem like the best way forwards.

The facts are already out there, particularly with the new and helpful CNCC website. Granted, they could be narrowed to CROW lands and by importance, but I think anyone who caves regularly on CROW land knows where it is and has a good understanding of which caves need permits and which don't. If people really want the list in Jenny's suggestion though, then I'm happy to try to compile it.

Offline Stuart Anderson

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
  • Yorkshire Subterranean Society - A.N.U.S.
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #688 on: April 02, 2013, 11:00:43 am »
Blackholesun, are you talking about compiling a list of caves on CRoW with permit access (or all CRoW caves)?. Do you want to divvy it up?
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline blackholesun

  • menacing presence
  • **
  • Posts: 223
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #689 on: April 02, 2013, 11:10:29 am »
Was going for all caves listed on the CNCC website, according to Jenny's suggestion. By
Location
Cave name
Permit required or not, through club, or through individual application
Closed seasons or not
Importance of cave (local, regional, national, system with multiple nationally important entrances.

Think that's it. Divvying it up sounds great, cheers. Which of the sections on the website are you up for?

Offline TheBitterEnd

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1546
  • KCC
    • KCC - Join an active club
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #690 on: April 02, 2013, 12:04:01 pm »
If you are putting together a list then SoloCaveDiver put together a GPS file of locations
see http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=12708.msg165372#msg165372

and from that I put together some online mapping against the OS background on Bing Maps, if you zoom into 1:25000 scale Access Land is shown - Three Counties Caves on a Map

Just thought it may be helpful.

Getting more sophisticated, I guess GIS shape files for Access Areas may be available for download so it may be possible to automate...
'Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.' — Mark Twain

Offline Jenny P

  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 811
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #691 on: April 02, 2013, 12:14:30 pm »
Re. the official deadline of 16th. March for matters to be raised that the BCA AGM:  yes, fair enough, but I think if this issue were raised as an item under A.O.B. and notified beforehand so that folks knew it was on the agenda, that would be OK. 

IMHO what is needed is to bring the issue to people's attention this year, so that they have a chance to think about it and collate necessary information, discuss the matter at individual, club and regional level and then, if it's thought necessary, come back to next year's AGM with a definite proposal on action required.

I wasn't thinking of restricting it to one region - all regions need to be included so that we can see the difference in the approaches by various negotiating bodies and landowners in England and Wales.  One very obvious point is that some landowners insist that all bookings are done officially by clubs dealing only through an access body approved by themselves and will not entertain issuing permits to individuals - this is part of the conditions they lay down and whoever is operating the access agreement has to abide  by that.  Even on CRoW land the system runs the whole way from very restrictive, clubs only, pre-booked permits right through to no permission at all required, just help yourself.  Which is probably what's at the root of much of the ill-feeling.





Offline Stuart Anderson

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
  • Yorkshire Subterranean Society - A.N.U.S.
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #692 on: April 02, 2013, 12:37:21 pm »
If you are putting together a list then SoloCaveDiver put together a GPS file of locations
see http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=12708.msg165372#msg165372

and from that I put together some online mapping against the OS background on Bing Maps, if you zoom into 1:25000 scale Access Land is shown - Three Counties Caves on a Map

Just thought it may be helpful.

Getting more sophisticated, I guess GIS shape files for Access Areas may be available for download so it may be possible to automate...

Cheers

Got the GPS files and uploaded to my map software.

Useful.
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline Ian Adams

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1240
  • UCET
    • UCET Caving Club (North Wales)
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #693 on: April 02, 2013, 12:44:53 pm »
Sorry Guys (Jenny et al;), I don’t think this is the right way to go at all.

So far as I am aware, no one is interested in disturbing access arrangements unless the cave is on CRoW. There is no need for a “list of caves” to be drawn up – it is only the basic principle of whether or not a caver can enjoy the benefit of CRoW that is at issue.

The BCA need only make a statement (which they have already done).

What is really needed is clarity, and that is unlikely to happen until there is a test case, someone stumps up for Counsel (probably give a non-committal answer) or someone figures out which government department to write to for clarification (if there even is such a place to write).

Ian
A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.

Offline Stuart Anderson

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
  • Yorkshire Subterranean Society - A.N.U.S.
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #694 on: April 02, 2013, 12:51:07 pm »
Agree that a full list is not worthwhile.

Would not a list of caves on CRoW be needed to find which caves enjoy a certain de facto "free open" access and are on CRoW (and perhaps why that landowner allows it so) and which caves are on CRoW and the situation needs addressing (in as much as, what I loosely call the open access lobby, want to have happen)? Then we would know which caves or areas need attention directing to.  :shrug:

I suppose it's a case of working from the top down or bottom up.
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline NigR

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
  • Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros SWCC
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #695 on: April 02, 2013, 12:52:20 pm »
Can someone involved in BCA elaborate on this for me?
As the deadline for a submission of an item for the agenda of the 2013 AGM has passed, does this mean that this issue (CROW and caving) will not be discussed there? If it can be, in what detail could it be?

If it can't, then waiting until mid 2014 to discuss this, at the AGM of a body with no legal standing, who produced The Report on caving and CROW, does not seem like the best way forwards.





Re. the official deadline of 16th. March for matters to be raised that the BCA AGM:  yes, fair enough, but I think if this issue were raised as an item under A.O.B. and notified beforehand so that folks knew it was on the agenda, that would be OK. 

IMHO what is needed is to bring the issue to people's attention this year, so that they have a chance to think about it and collate necessary information, discuss the matter at individual, club and regional level and then, if it's thought necessary, come back to next year's AGM with a definite proposal on action required.

Jenny, I value your measured input. It is certainly a step in the right direction that someone such as yourself at least acknowledges that problems do exist and are in need of addressing. Everything you say is fine and I am sure everyone will be happy to go down the route you suggest. As you said earlier, things cannot be expected to change overnight.  Conversely, you cannot seriously be expecting time to stand still and nothing to be done outside of the time scale you suggest. Can you? I really do hope not because I would hate for you to be disappointed.




Offline Ian Adams

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1240
  • UCET
    • UCET Caving Club (North Wales)
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #696 on: April 02, 2013, 12:54:23 pm »
I would suggest doing it the other way around Stu.

There is no need for a list of CRoW caves until or unless a decision has been made that "cavers" can or will enter without permits/permission etc.

(Unless you want to  ;) )

Ian
A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.

Offline Stuart Anderson

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2052
  • Yorkshire Subterranean Society - A.N.U.S.
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #697 on: April 02, 2013, 12:58:01 pm »
Valid point Ian.

Might start if bored but probably not a priority issue then.
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline blackholesun

  • menacing presence
  • **
  • Posts: 223
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #698 on: April 02, 2013, 01:58:32 pm »
Okay. As I say, I'm happy to do it if people want it done. Some may not realise how much of the Dales is on CROW, and how little of that is accessible without a permit.

I've emailed the yorkshire dales LAF to ask when their next meeting is and if a question on this could be submitted. Would be grateful if people avoid doing the same thing so that we don't flood their inboxes.

Offline JessopSmythe

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 383
  • SWCC
    • South & Mid Wales Cave Rescue Team
Re: Loss of cave access, CROW and other things
« Reply #699 on: April 02, 2013, 03:22:02 pm »
If it can't, then waiting until mid 2014 to discuss this, at the AGM of a body with no legal standing, who produced The Report on caving and CROW, does not seem like the best way forwards.


Sorry if I'm being pedantic but this is a very sweeping statement. Who decides the "best way forwards"?
Perhaps BCA have discussed this and feel that what they are doing is the best way forwards.

I think it would be fairer to acknowledge that there is, perhaps, some disagreement on what is the best way forwards and we (cavers and BCA members) could benefit from some structured discussion on the matter.
The way you've written it seems to imply that there is no need for discussion as it's already decided that your plan is the best.
"If at first you don't succeed, try again. If that doesn't work, quit. There's no point being a damn fool about it" Homer Simpson

 

Main Menu

Forum Home Help Search