Author Topic: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act  (Read 84889 times)

Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #675 on: August 07, 2014, 03:07:46 pm »
Why can't we all just - get along? All opinions have value, don't they?
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #676 on: August 07, 2014, 03:15:03 pm »
Twenty Seven pages and we are right back where we started ,with the same arguments !
Can't wait for the the 16th AUG and it,s my birthday!

Happy birthday.
One of the reasons given for locking the last CRoW thread was that it was 27 pages long.

Offline Bottlebank

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #677 on: August 07, 2014, 03:19:26 pm »
Twenty Seven pages and we are right back where we started ,with the same arguments !
Can't wait for the the 16th AUG and it,s my birthday!

Happy birthday.
One of the reasons given for locking the last CRoW thread was that it was 27 pages long.

Oh well, if there's a danger of that this is probably a good time to point that the NCA submission appears to have been ignored and the landowners were part of the consultation because not because they had caves on their land but because they were landowners.

None of us know so far as I'm aware (if some did please correct me) whether any landowners mentioned caves, caving or tried to get caves excluded.

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Offline graham

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #678 on: August 07, 2014, 03:20:16 pm »
Yesterday I really thought we where progressing, then, along came Graham!!

I'm sorry? Until I answered the person who was rude about my wife, I stuck very closely to the facts, proffered references and direct comments. What have you contributed to this thread that has actually shed any light on the issue.

As it happens, I have had a number of helpful comments and useful links given directly to me by those who share my views on this matter but do not wish to become targets for the bile that gets shot my way. I understand this and I don't blame them.
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Offline bograt

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #679 on: August 07, 2014, 03:22:21 pm »
I would like to see a study of the historical reasons for many of the current access controls, I suspect many of them will be rendered obsolete by the advent of CRoW (Grouse Moors, private land, etc.) whilst others can be legitamised on the grounds of conservation or general public safety. Such a study could indentify which systems can sensibly retain restrictions and those that no longer require them.


Interesting  that there has not been much response to this suggestion, maybe too much to hide?

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Offline Bottlebank

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #680 on: August 07, 2014, 03:28:51 pm »
I would like to see a study of the historical reasons for many of the current access controls, I suspect many of them will be rendered obsolete by the advent of CRoW (Grouse Moors, private land, etc.) whilst others can be legitamised on the grounds of conservation or general public safety. Such a study could indentify which systems can sensibly retain restrictions and those that no longer require them.


Interesting  that there has not been much response to this suggestion, maybe too much to hide?



I agree, and I've nothing to hide. Although I remain hopeful that BCA will decide not to adopt CRoW in which case a study like that would still be helpful with any ongoing negotiations with landowners as well.
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Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #681 on: August 07, 2014, 03:43:40 pm »
Well Trinkhopping certainly doesn't appear on the list of included activities (which does exist BTW),
Could you provide a link to this list?  I am aware of several lists made by Natural England and thought they all had a caveat as to not being comprehensive.  The act contains no list of included activities.  And I thought the Minister made it clear that the definition was left open so any activity could be included provided it did not go against the prohibitions. 

The legislators did consider caving as it is mentioned in the analysis of responses to the consultation paper.  I quote "Responses were mixed on whether a new right of access should extend to cyclists, horse riders, climbers, cavers and canoeists." taken from the analysis of Proposal 15 which can be seen using this link http://web.archive.org/web/20000208084449/http:/www.wildlife-countryside.detr.gov.uk/access/analysis/index.htm.  (Thanks to who ever it was for that suggestion.)  But as it appears that having sent a 'pro CRoW covers caving' message, the legislators then got an 'anti CRoW covers caving' message, it is of little surprise that they then gave little further thought to making the topic explicitly clear.     


I would like to see a study of the historical reasons for many of the current access controls,

Interesting  that there has not been much response to this suggestion, maybe too much to hide?
I think it will be one of the consequential actions of the Working Group.


Lastly, in the interests of keeping this thread polite, I am going to try and avoid responding to comments which appear to ignore one or more of my prior postings and just state a contrary position.  I am going to assume the commenter has read them and concluded they are not persuasive.  But I have sympathy with Graham when unnecessary side swipes appear.  Can we please keep this thread on topic? 

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #682 on: August 07, 2014, 03:46:04 pm »
Spoil sport.

Offline Bottlebank

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #683 on: August 07, 2014, 03:56:06 pm »
Well Trinkhopping certainly doesn't appear on the list of included activities (which does exist BTW),
Could you provide a link to this list?  I am aware of several lists made by Natural England and thought they all had a caveat as to not being comprehensive.  The act contains no list of included activities.  And I thought the Minister made it clear that the definition was left open so any activity could be included provided it did not go against the prohibitions. 

The legislators did consider caving as it is mentioned in the analysis of responses to the consultation paper.  I quote "Responses were mixed on whether a new right of access should extend to cyclists, horse riders, climbers, cavers and canoeists." taken from the analysis of Proposal 15 which can be seen using this link http://web.archive.org/web/20000208084449/http:/www.wildlife-countryside.detr.gov.uk/access/analysis/index.htm.  (Thanks to who ever it was for that suggestion.)  But as it appears that having sent a 'pro CRoW covers caving' message, the legislators then got an 'anti CRoW covers caving' message, it is of little surprise that they then gave little further thought to making the topic explicitly clear.     


I would like to see a study of the historical reasons for many of the current access controls,

Interesting  that there has not been much response to this suggestion, maybe too much to hide?
I think it will be one of the consequential actions of the Working Group.


Lastly, in the interests of keeping this thread polite, I am going to try and avoid responding to comments which appear to ignore one or more of my prior postings and just state a contrary position.  I am going to assume the commenter has read them and concluded they are not persuasive.  But I have sympathy with Graham when unnecessary side swipes appear.  Can we please keep this thread on topic?

Hi Bob,

Sorry, you're right, I was looking at the DEFRA and NE lists.

Looking at the analysis it seems more an acknowledgement that they received a response than a confirmation it was considered?

Tony
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #684 on: August 07, 2014, 04:15:40 pm »
You could list some included activities as examples. Like DEFRA did when they list activities "like climbing". When they did that I thought it was all settled. I thought, there's nothing more like climbing than caving.

You couldn't have a list of all included activities, obviously!

By the way, trinkhopping is the outdoor version of trinkethopping.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #685 on: August 07, 2014, 04:26:54 pm »
OK I'll try to take you lot seriously.

This meeting on the 16th. What are they going to talk about? A bunch of barrack room lawyers going over all the same stuff again? Why? They won't have long enough. Talking about whether or not CRoW is desirable to cavers? What would be the point? If the meeting decides that they will welcome it if NE accepts the QCs opinion, will that help sway NE? Surely NE have to objectively consider it from a strictly legal point of view and not consider what cavers or landowners want. They have to only concern themselves with what the law is. And for the time being until there is a court case the QC trumps all. You might not agree with that but I think most cavers will.

Offline graham

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #686 on: August 07, 2014, 04:32:12 pm »
OK I'll try to take you lot seriously.

This meeting on the 16th. What are they going to talk about? A bunch of barrack room lawyers going over all the same stuff again? Why? They won't have long enough. Talking about whether or not CRoW is desirable to cavers? What would be the point? If the meeting decides that they will welcome it if NE accepts the QCs opinion, will that help sway NE? Surely NE have to objectively consider it from a strictly legal point of view and not consider what cavers or landowners want. They have to only concern themselves with what the law is. And for the time being until there is a court case the QC trumps all. You might not agree with that but I think most cavers will.

I think you'll find that DEFRA's lawyers trump a QC until the time any case reaches court.
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Offline graham

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #687 on: August 07, 2014, 04:33:06 pm »
Why can't we all just - get along? All opinions have value, don't they?

We are getting along. Tony's baiting me and I'm not rising. I baited Graham and got a rise. 1-nil to me so far.

Does that really give you pleasure. Jesus Christ!
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #688 on: August 07, 2014, 04:36:28 pm »
OK I'll try to take you lot seriously.

This meeting on the 16th. What are they going to talk about? A bunch of barrack room lawyers going over all the same stuff again? Why? They won't have long enough. Talking about whether or not CRoW is desirable to cavers? What would be the point? If the meeting decides that they will welcome it if NE accepts the QCs opinion, will that help sway NE? Surely NE have to objectively consider it from a strictly legal point of view and not consider what cavers or landowners want. They have to only concern themselves with what the law is. And for the time being until there is a court case the QC trumps all. You might not agree with that but I think most cavers will.

I think you'll find that DEFRA's lawyers trump a QC until the time any case reaches court.

Oh no it doesn't.

Offline Bottlebank

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #689 on: August 07, 2014, 04:37:53 pm »
Why can't we all just - get along? All opinions have value, don't they?

We are getting along. Tony's baiting me and I'm not rising. I baited Graham and got a rise. 1-nil to me so far.

Does that really give you pleasure. Jesus Christ!

Graham, sorry if I brought that on Linda, I hadn't realised I was baiting him.

I must remember never to disagree with him.

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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #690 on: August 07, 2014, 04:38:54 pm »
Why can't we all just - get along? All opinions have value, don't they?

We are getting along. Tony's baiting me and I'm not rising. I baited Graham and got a rise. 1-nil to me so far.

Does that really give you pleasure. Jesus Christ!

2-nil?

Online paul

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Re: QC says cavers DO have access to caves under the CROW Act
« Reply #691 on: August 07, 2014, 04:56:33 pm »
Global Moderator Comment Yet again, a Topic with 28 Pages and not going anywhere. There's no point dragging this out any further so I am, once again, locking the thread. It remains for future reference but further contributions are pointless as it obviously will go nowhere.
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