Author Topic: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement  (Read 25192 times)

Online SamT

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2014, 05:54:16 pm »
Mark.. there are plenty of BP bolts available. BP bolts have 'been decided upon' already.  There only real issue with them that anyone can come up with is that they might be quite tricky to remove (oh the irony).  Given my comments with regards the garlands bolts.. I cant see a well placed bolt BP bolt in quaking pot is going to need replacement ........ ever.
The same goes for the bolts in mels caves. 

I am failing to see that there is a big issue here.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 06:40:05 pm by SamT »

Offline Antwan

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2014, 06:10:29 pm »
Agree with you Sam, place the right stuff first time then 20 years later there's a decent anchor and not a rusty spit.

Offline andrew

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2014, 07:28:22 pm »
Yes put the Right bolt in first time. Not convinced by bp, it is meant to go in a 16mm hole, but I and other installers have found, even with a brand new bit, it really does not fit in without a hammer, then difficult to get out, so testing hole is not easy. Would not be good in Quaking.

As for wear, the anchor on Swildons 20 was replaced as it loose, many years ago. Showed signs of wear, not from rope, but mailion used for the ladder - proving Swildons is the centre of the universe not Garlands pot  ;D

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2014, 09:52:22 pm »
Mark.. there are plenty of BP bolts available. BP bolts have 'been decided upon' already.  There only real issue with them that anyone can come up with is that they might be quite tricky to remove (oh the irony).  Given my comments with regards the garlands bolts.. I cant see a well placed bolt BP bolt in quaking pot is going to need replacement ........ ever.
The same goes for the bolts in mels caves. 

I am failing to see that there is a big issue here.

SamT,
You are content that BP bolts have been decided upon. Technology advances all the time and there is now another anchor on the scene. It's just things moving on as they will and no big issue.

Over the past few years many of the more difficult potholes in the Dales have been fitted with an assortment of stainless through bolts and various types of resin anchors. If the big pitch in Quaking hasn't been done and a team of fit young tigers take on the challenge and if they choose to use IC resin anchors, they will be using anchors that drop smoothly into 12mm holes and they will be able to install three of them using a lightweight drill and one 14.4 volt battery.

http://www.resinanchor.co.uk/
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 10:00:50 pm by Simon Wilson »

Online SamT

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2014, 10:53:39 pm »

Not convinced by bp, it is meant to go in a 16mm hole, but I and other installers have found, even with a brand new bit, it really does not fit in without a hammer, then difficult to get out, so testing hole is not easy. Would not be good in Quaking.

Thats why I start the hole with an 18mm bit for the first 3/4 inch or so, then switch to a 16mm bit. Negates all issues with getting the bolt stuck.

Quote
As for wear, the anchor on Swildons 20 was replaced as it loose, many years ago. Showed signs of wear, not from rope, but mailion used for the ladder - proving Swildons is the centre of the universe not Garlands pot  ;D

What was it replaced with out of interest.

You are content that BP bolts have been decided upon.

I am, and the point I was making is that they are freely available for installation.  It seems to be that foks have the notion that there are still no bolts available, which is certainly not the case. 

Quote
Technology advances all the time and there is now another anchor on the scene. It's just things moving on as they will and no big issue.

Totally agree, I don't have a problem with product development.

Quote
they will be using anchors that drop smoothly into 12mm holes and they will be able to install three of them using a lightweight drill and one 14.4 volt battery."

Good stuff.

Offline andrew

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2014, 08:05:28 am »


That's why I start the hole with an 18mm bit for the first 3/4 inch or so, then switch to a 16mm bit. Negates all issues with getting the bolt stuck.

Technically, that has not been tested, I asked if BP could use 18mm holes, and was informed, that as it had not been tested, they could not. (This was a year ago, so might have changed now)

What was it replaced with out of interest.

Anther DMM. As this was the original spit hole, it is the third anchor in the same spot.

Offline cavermark

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2014, 11:25:34 am »

Technically, that has not been tested, I asked if BP could use 18mm holes, and was informed, that as it had not been tested, they could not. (This was a year ago, so might have changed now)


Surely if the individual placements pass a test with a pull rig that is good enough?  - they are then highly unlikely to fail, they will be backed up anyway, if they work loose they can be rectified, we are unlikely to return to the manufacturer about it?

Online SamT

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2014, 12:41:34 pm »
Andrew - just confirm - I only use the 18mm bit for the first 15mm or so - effectively the same as reaming out the neck of the hole to allow for the widening of the P bolt as it goes from twists to straight just before the eye.

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2014, 04:25:10 pm »

Technically, that has not been tested, I asked if BP could use 18mm holes, and was informed, that as it had not been tested, they could not. (This was a year ago, so might have changed now)


Surely if the individual placements pass a test with a pull rig that is good enough?  - they are then highly unlikely to fail, they will be backed up anyway, if they work loose they can be rectified, we are unlikely to return to the manufacturer about it?

I am not aware of results from a test program which would support the use of an 18mm hole for BP anchors.  I am NOT saying you can't use an 18mm hole, indeed there is some information around suggest that you will be able to.  But we need evidence to justify moving away from the anchor manufacturer's recommended installation procedure of using a 16mm hole. 

The problem is the observation that BP anchors frequently showed the rock surface around the hole spalling during the extensive testing program undertaken by CNCC Tech Group.  That may well be sufficient to mean the location can't be reused.  Andrew and I will be doing some tests this weekend to see if this spalling can be minimised.

Also I was informed this morning that around one hundred BP anchors are in BCA's hands available for issue.  (I think that also implies that over three hundred BP anchors are out there either placed or waiting to be placed in cave.)  No one raised a need for more BP 316 anchors at the last E&T meeting on 2nd November.

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2014, 05:16:49 pm »
Also I was informed this morning that around one hundred BP anchors are in BCA's hands available for issue. 
Sorry that should be 50ish.

Online SamT

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2014, 05:34:49 pm »
AAARARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH   :wall:

I'm not suggesting using an 18mm hole for the BP bolts.  Nobody needs to test BP bolts in an 18mm hole.

This is just about purely widening the entrance to the hole slightly to allow for the fact that the BP bolts widen just before the eye.  This makes them far easier to place as they don't get stuck when your testing for fit, before applying any resin. An issue that is putting Andrew off placing any more.

Offline damian

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2014, 07:06:14 pm »
I'm not suggesting using an 18mm hole for the BP bolts.  Nobody needs to test BP bolts in an 18mm hole.

This is just about purely widening the entrance to the hole slightly to allow for the fact that the BP bolts widen just before the eye.  This makes them far easier to place as they don't get stuck when your testing for fit, before applying any resin. An issue that is putting Andrew off placing any more.
The problem with doing this is that each Region has an approved procedure which, for most regions is extremely prescriptive and to install anything in a method which is contrary to this would make it rather difficult for BCA / the Region in court if the need every arose.

Personally I am very unhappy at the amount of hammering of a BP anchor I have to do to get it into a 16mm hole. I am no engineer but it cannot be good for the anchor!

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2014, 07:24:48 pm »
AAARARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH   :wall:

I'm not suggesting using an 18mm hole for the BP bolts.  Nobody needs to test BP bolts in an 18mm hole.

This is just about purely widening the entrance to the hole slightly to allow for the fact that the BP bolts widen just before the eye.  This makes them far easier to place as they don't get stuck when your testing for fit, before applying any resin. An issue that is putting Andrew off placing any more.

SamT,
You have made it clear what you are describing. But any anchor needs to be tested in 18mm holes if it is going to be used to replace DMM anchors in the same hole. For those who might not know, DMM anchors fit in an 18mm hole and BP anchors are supposed to fit in a 16mm hole.

It seems to me that if installers are having problems installing BP anchors in 16mm holes, making their own ad hoc solutions and not adhering to a uniform procedure then there is a failure in the system. Is there a specified procedure for installing the BP anchor? If there isn't then there should be and it should be the same procedure that has been established to work properly during testing.

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2014, 09:05:04 pm »
I've never installed one of the new bolts but I do have one of the twisted types on my windowsill at work. I got it from Bob Dearman a good few years ago. I assume they are similar.

If you can't get the bolt into a 16mm hole without belting it with a hammer then I'm with Damian. That can't be right. I can't imagine they were designed to have an interference fit. 

There could be inconsistencies in the manufacture of the bolt, assuming you didn't have to hammer the original test bolts into a 16mm hole.

The holes might not be being drilled consistently.

To be honest I don't think many people would be able to drill a 16mm hole with a heavy cordless drill, possibly in one hand, at arms length whilst dangling in a harness. Its a long hole to be able to accurately drill with your feet on the ground.

Simons 12mm hole is very appealing……… Ooo errr

Mark




Offline cavermark

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2014, 09:15:36 pm »
The problem with doing this is that each Region has an approved procedure which, for most regions is extremely prescriptive and to install anything in a method which is contrary to this would make it rather difficult for BCA / the Region in court if the need every arose.


Is there really much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves?
Especially if tested with a pull rig after installation (I know that's a major ball ache in some caves but it's only the same size/weight as an sds drill)

Offline bograt

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2014, 09:16:53 pm »
Then again, there's always the issue of wear on the drill bit??
Aim low, achieve your goals, avoid disappointment

Offline Mark Wright

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2014, 09:36:29 pm »
I assumed they would check that before they went underground as part of the installation procedure???

Mark





Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2014, 09:46:35 pm »
Is there really much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves?
Especially if tested with a pull rig after installation (I know that's a major ball ache in some caves but it's only the same size/weight as an sds drill)
The testing you reference was stopped by BCA so technically it is being done against BCA's position.  (It is very easy to break the surface resin as the anchor head will flex unless the test load is applied in a particular way which is not a simple axial pull.)  I think only DCA do test.

To be honest I don't think many people would be able to drill a 16mm hole with a heavy cordless drill, possibly in one hand, at arms length whilst dangling in a harness. Its a long hole to be able to accurately drill with your feet on the ground.
One feature of this system is that the hole must NOT be smooth.  The irregularities in the hole make for a mechanical interlock between resin and rock so that if the bond should fail (and they have in a few cases), the block of resin and anchor can still resit a reasonable pull.

AAARARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH   :wall:
Sorry SamT I should have indicated that I was suggesting doing the 18mm hole work so BCA did not have a panic on its hands when the first demand to replace an Eco with a BP came in.  (Hopefully not in the next few weeks.)

Andrew's concern is not size of hole, it the simple and rather uncomfortable fact that testing BP anchors show many spall the hole edge making it doubtful if one can reuse the hole location.  Eco anchor came out without doing that.  That was something I for one had not given much thought too.  :-[  If we can't show most BP anchors can be got out without destroying the hole location, then perhaps we should revisit whether we should be using BP anchors on conservation grounds.  OK it may not be my life time when they wear out, but conservation is not just about the next 40 years or so.

Then again, there's always the issue of wear on the drill bit??
The number of reports of difficulty getting the anchor into holes suggest it is not drill bit but variation in anchors.  We have not thought (so far) it necessary to measure the anchor 'twist' diameter.

Online SamT

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #68 on: November 20, 2014, 10:05:54 pm »
From my experience. . And I've installed dozens now both in caves and on climbing routes is that its only the last inch or so, near the eye that gets stuck.  and I agree with Andrew that its a grand royal pain in the ass when you insert the bolt to check the  depth/fit etc and it gets stuck.  Then also then requiring a good tap (nothing more than that in my experience) to set it in the resin. Using the 18mm bit to widen the entrance to the hole has negated all these issues. 

Anyhow.. lifes just too short to carry on going round in little circles on here.  I'll quite happily carry on installing the BCA supplied BP bolts for you all to enjoy until they run out and something else comes along. 

Huge Props to those who have expended huge amounts of time and effort getting us to where we are now and those pushing the progress and development for the future for the wider community.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2014, 10:17:18 pm »

Is there really much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves?


Anyone who would make, test or install an anchor thinking that there is not "much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves" would not be a suitable person to have anything to do with 'bolts' or anchors.

Offline Hammy

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2014, 11:38:29 pm »
But what about titanium bolts?

These only need a 14mm hole - 'minimum expected life of 50 years and are expected to last for generations'

http://www.titanclimbing.com/Titan%20Climbing%20products%20-%20Eterna%20Titanium%20glue%20in%20bolt.html

Offline cavermark

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2014, 01:13:45 am »

Is there really much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves?


Anyone who would make, test or install an anchor thinking that there is not "much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves" would not be a suitable person to have anything to do with 'bolts' or anchors.

I was implying that the rigorous thinking, discussion and testing of sutiable eco type hangers that has gone on, and the careful procedures and installation that the regional bodies carry out with them, is unlikely to lead to a failure. If there is a failure it is likely to be part of a rigging system that is backed up so will not be catastrophic.
I would have thought the variables involved in installation are more likely to be the cause of any failures and so taking the manufacturer to court is unlikely (but I am only an interested outsider speculating... )

Has there been a court case then involving bolts (excuse my ignorance)?

Offline Antwan

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2014, 07:30:31 am »
Titanium is only a quarter as hard as steel, so I have a slight doubts about actual wear and tear over 50years, especially as a sports climb lower off.

You could always buy one and run  ropes through it every time they get washed?

Offline Hammy

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2014, 07:54:56 am »
Titanium is only a quarter as hard as steel, so I have a slight doubts about actual wear and tear over 50years, especially as a sports climb lower off.

You could always buy one and run  ropes through it every time they get washed?

http://www.titanclimbing.com/Titan%20climbing%20products%20-%20forged%20titanium%20anchor%20rings.html

http://www.titanclimbing.com/ram's-horns.html


Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Merged topic - Spit and BP bolt removal/replacement
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2014, 12:32:07 pm »

Is there really much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves?


Anyone who would make, test or install an anchor thinking that there is not "much likelihood of ever ending up in court over bolts in caves" would not be a suitable person to have anything to do with 'bolts' or anchors.

I was implying that the rigorous thinking, discussion and testing of sutiable eco type hangers that has gone on, and the careful procedures and installation that the regional bodies carry out with them, is unlikely to lead to a failure. If there is a failure it is likely to be part of a rigging system that is backed up so will not be catastrophic.
I would have thought the variables involved in installation are more likely to be the cause of any failures and so taking the manufacturer to court is unlikely (but I am only an interested outsider speculating... )

Has there been a court case then involving bolts (excuse my ignorance)?

You contradicted yourself there. The second part I underlined is correct but the first part appears to be under question.

The installation procedure for BP anchors should have been proved during testing, it should be specified in the installation manual and the latest version of the manual should have been given to all installers. I expect that will have been done so why are two installers having problems and disagreeing in this thread about how to install them?