Author Topic: Access in private or democratic groups. (Read 19658 times)

Brains · « **Reply #50 on:** May 16, 2016, 06:34:20 pm »

Maybe being cynical but it seems the problem is you are upsetting the "keep it locked" people who have argued so hard to prevent a clarification of CRoW, so grasping at straws and the fact you have the word "cave" in the company title they are having a pop, the fact you are dealing with mines seems a bit inconvenient.
Or perhaps there has been an access epiphany and they are looking at your solutions to adapt them for their own locked sites?
Still, not my monkeys, not my circus so I will leave them to it
BTW, good job well done with the mines

droid · « **Reply #51 on:** May 16, 2016, 06:55:56 pm »

First mention of CRoW.

Which is irrelevant to mines, as has been frequently explained....

Peter Burgess · « **Reply #52 on:** May 16, 2016, 07:44:20 pm »

I have no problem with Roy's approach to mine access. I doubt Roy has ANY interest in spreading his good works to caves. That might not be same for the others however.

Cap'n Chris · « **Reply #53 on:** May 16, 2016, 09:22:48 pm »

Quote from: royfellows on May 16, 2016, 04:25:56 pm

I would venture to suggest that a huge majority of cavers are in favour of free and open access, this was reflected in the CROW ballot and in a lot of opinion expressed on this website.

That's not actually true though, is it?

The "huge majority" of cavers did not actively support CRoW. What we do know is that the majority didn't feel sufficiently motivated to venture registering their view on the topic.

Of the people who actually did vote, though, there was a majority. The two are very different beasts. Please do not conflate them.

mikem · « **Reply #54 on:** May 16, 2016, 09:47:39 pm »

I think you'll find a majority of cavers are supportive of open access to MOST caves (which happen to be on access land & don't have mitigating circumstances). The reason most cavers like caving is they aren't being told what they can or cannot do all the time...

Mike

Peter Burgess · « **Reply #55 on:** May 16, 2016, 09:50:25 pm »

Nonsense. Most cavers like caving because they like exploring caves. Anyway, this topic seems to died a death as there is nothing left to talk about except for a bit of squabbling.. :-)

mikem · « **Reply #56 on:** May 16, 2016, 09:56:40 pm »

Okay, one of the things they like about caving, I didn't mean the only thing

Mike

Cap'n Chris · « **Reply #57 on:** May 16, 2016, 09:59:53 pm »

Quote from: mikem on May 16, 2016, 09:47:39 pm

I think you'll find a majority of cavers are supportive of open access to MOST caves

I suspect if they were provided with a fuller picture of the potentially calamitous results of the "Jam Today" Populist Policy they might temper their enthusiastic support to a great extent. Open access has a price to pay. Presently the majority of cavers in the UK can gain access to the majority of caves in the country, nearly all without any cost penalty which is as near as dammit the equivalent of free and easy access, without any need for legislative wrangling, institutionalised antagonism of landowners, a schism in national and regional administrations, and an unstoppable flight from national bodies by the general public/cavers/people with a builder's hat, who "no longer need the BCA 'cos they can go caving wherever they like whenever they want" etc.. If the BCA wanted to commit slow suicide it's arguably doing an effective job at it by pursuing CRoW.

mikem · « **Reply #58 on:** May 16, 2016, 10:13:41 pm »

You can't cite keeping the BCA in existence as a reason not to have open access...

Mike

Cap'n Chris · « **Reply #59 on:** May 16, 2016, 10:17:20 pm »

Indeed. The BCA probably won't survive if there is open access.

Peter Burgess · « **Reply #60 on:** May 16, 2016, 10:19:44 pm »

There's a heap load more things the BCA could be doing without going anywhere near the matter of cave access, should it wish to. In fact, with the likes of CAL, and other bodies specifically set up to work on matters of access, its a good reason for the BCA to simply leave things alone.

Cap'n Chris · « **Reply #61 on:** May 16, 2016, 10:25:14 pm »

Indeed. One of the principle functions of the BCA should be to ensure caves are conserved as well as can be reasonably and practicably achieved; cavers are not particularly good at it, per se, on the whole, so it morally behoves the national administration to actively (and I mean actively) engage in conservation in all its various guises.

It's one thing pandering to the interests of cavers, ('cos it's populist), but...

Who is looking after the interest of caves?

And square the circle of how you can protect something if the general public has a legal right to access it.

mikem · « **Reply #62 on:** May 16, 2016, 10:27:33 pm »

One of the principal things that the BMC are involved in is access & climbers don't need to be a member to go climbing - probably one of the most respected & liked governing bodies in the country...

Mike

Cap'n Chris · « **Reply #63 on:** May 16, 2016, 10:28:08 pm »

They do in Cheddar Gorge.

Peter Burgess · « **Reply #64 on:** May 16, 2016, 10:29:49 pm »

Quote

Who is looking after the interest of caves?

Natural England? NRW?

Cap'n Chris · « **Reply #65 on:** May 16, 2016, 10:30:25 pm »

No budget, no resources, no action, no actual power. Actually that's a bit harsh. Substitute little for no. NE, certainly, not so knowledgeable about NRW's finances and legislative clout.

Peter Burgess · « **Reply #66 on:** May 16, 2016, 10:32:04 pm »

Looks like cavers will have to do it then.

Cap'n Chris · « **Reply #67 on:** May 16, 2016, 10:33:29 pm »

They're too busy caving, having a lark; they don't want to look after caves, they want to go caving.

royfellows · « **Reply #68 on:** May 16, 2016, 10:47:43 pm »

Sorry but I think that this thread is going off at a tangent.

Free and easy access to mines on the CAL schedule, yes, because there are no conservation issues related to visitors, its all related to natural decay and conservation means interventionism in the form of remedial work.
Parc exploration would not get you very far without the efforts of my helper and I, 5 digs in there that will last indefinitely, 3 ladder refurbs - down to me.

Henfwlch - far reaches via my dig, actually the first use by me of steel and concrete

Talybont - a team of WMS bods including me, concrete refurb, me alone and took 12 months. No Roy = No access to deep adit. No democracy, well I am really sorry about that. Maybe I should have took opinion about the brand of cement.

Sorry about the rant, its late, just got in from training, food in the microwave.

Cap'n Chris · « **Reply #69 on:** May 16, 2016, 10:55:08 pm »

Quote from: royfellows on May 16, 2016, 10:47:43 pm

Sorry but I think that this thread is going off at a tangent.

Correct. Apologies!

Cap'n Chris · « **Reply #70 on:** May 16, 2016, 10:56:36 pm »

Quote from: royfellows on May 16, 2016, 10:47:43 pm

No democracy, well I am really sorry about that.

Don't be. Access Control Bodies don't need to be democratic to function exceptionally well. In fact many do so because of this, not in spite of it.

Ian Adams · « **Reply #71 on:** May 16, 2016, 11:24:09 pm »

Quote from: Cap'n Chris on May 16, 2016, 10:56:36 pm

Quote from: royfellows on May 16, 2016, 10:47:43 pm
No democracy, well I am really sorry about that.

Don't be. Access Control Bodies don't need to be democratic to function exceptionally well. In fact many do so because of this, not in spite of it.

.... Including CAL, thank you for pointing this out

Ian

Oceanrower · « **Reply #72 on:** May 16, 2016, 11:54:38 pm »

Quote from: Cap'n Chris on May 16, 2016, 10:28:08 pm

They do in Cheddar Gorge.

No they don't.

Or, to be more accurate, they do in the half owned by the same people that own the caves......

Cap'n Chris · « **Reply #73 on:** May 17, 2016, 12:01:06 am »

The vertical half. :-)

royfellows · « **Reply #74 on:** May 17, 2016, 08:02:07 am »

I came in late last night, checked the thread, and saw a lot of bickering starting.

If you stand back and take an objective view we have a situation whereby there is now access where previously there was no access, and lot of you are bickering over it!
A person would say that it isn't difficult to see why no progress was being made before CAL.

Now grasping the bull by the horns, I ask a simple question.
As has already been stated CAL policy is that access to the mines on its schedule should be as free and easy as possible, and bearing in mind that there are no conservation issues, does anyone feel this this should be done differently?