Author Topic: Access in private or democratic groups.  (Read 17906 times)

Offline AR

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #75 on: May 17, 2016, 08:26:51 am »
If you stand back and take an objective view we have a situation whereby there is now access where previously there was no access, and lot of you are bickering over it!
A person would say that it isn't difficult to see why no progress was being made before CAL.

Now grasping the bull by the horns, I ask a simple question.
As has already been stated CAL policy is that access to the mines on its schedule should be as free and easy as possible, and bearing in mind that there are no conservation issues, does anyone feel this this should be done differently?

In so many situations, it needs a few determined people with common purpose to really get things done, otherwise we see the situation where everybody mills around thinking somebody should do something with the end result that nobody does anything.

As I said a while back on Aditnow, if Roy is empire-building then I'm a flag-waving imperialist; how many sites can we now easily and legitimately get access to thanks to his hard work and that of his compatriots, all of which I might add is for the love of the mines and not for personal gain?

This whole thread has come across to me as an exercise in straw man building; I hear a lot of people banging on about democracy but how many of them can be bothered to turn out to regional or national caving body meetings? That's your democratic forum, but I suppose it takes _effort_ to attend meetings or worse still, stand for one of the posts. So much easier to gob off on the internet....
Dirty old mines need love too....

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #76 on: May 17, 2016, 08:38:42 am »
I think you'll find a majority of cavers are supportive of open access to MOST caves

I suspect if they were provided with a fuller picture of the potentially calamitous results of the "Jam Today" Populist Policy they might temper their enthusiastic support to a great extent. Open access has a price to pay. Presently the majority of cavers in the UK can gain access to the majority of caves in the country, nearly all without any cost penalty which is as near as dammit the equivalent of free and easy access, without any need for legislative wrangling, institutionalised antagonism of landowners, a schism in national and regional administrations, and an unstoppable flight from national bodies by the general public/cavers/people with a builder's hat, who "no longer need the BCA 'cos they can go caving wherever they like whenever they want" etc.. If the BCA wanted to commit slow suicide it's arguably doing an effective job at it by pursuing CRoW.

Your view of the access situation is narrow and South-centric. Lack of access to great parts of the karst in the North has meant that cavers have become increasingly concentrated on those limited areas where they can get access.

You are continuing with the dirty tricks when you throw in the red herring of antagonism of landowners. There is no evidence for any "antagonism of landowners"; it is an idea invented by you and the rest of your small anti-CRoW group. The CroW campaign has been an opportunity for cavers to talk with landowners and other interested people and further improve the good relations that we have.

The CRoW campaign has the potential to enhance the reputation of the BCA in the same way that access campaigns have done for the BMC.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #77 on: May 17, 2016, 08:49:32 am »
Apologies to Roy and others but Simon Wilson's skewing comments need rebuttal.

A nice example of the divided house; on the one hand people seem genuinely convinced that BCA is enhancing its reputation and good relations by using force of law to trample on landowners' wishes to control access to caves on their land, and on the other hand people consider this a form of antagonism of landowners, and making mention of it is viewed as a red herring. There are landowners who are most definitely not impressed, to put it mildly, with the turn of events. Perhaps both views are correct, in which case it supports the posit that there is a schism and a house divided and that is another story, yet to play out.

PS Where have I stated being anti-CRoW? Why do you tar me as part of an "anti-CRoW group", as though such a thing even exists? It is possible to see both sides of something and comment thereon while still retaining neutrality, is it not?

PPS Anyone who sets out to organise access, and succeeds, should be supported (even if access has conditions attached). Roy has done wonderful work and should be example to others.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 09:34:46 am by Cap'n Chris »

Offline caving_fox

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #78 on: May 17, 2016, 09:09:03 am »
Quote
how many sites can we now easily and legitimately get access to thanks to his hard work and that of his compatriots, all of which I might add is for the love of the mines and not for personal gain?

Is there a list of which ones are now readily accessible?
If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.

Online royfellows

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #79 on: May 17, 2016, 09:24:05 am »
Here you are:
http://rakelane.anduin.org.uk/cal/sites.html


To lighten things up, lets all have a good laugh.
Tried to follow a link to CAL and got an error page, and this is one of the 'ads' that was on it:

Buy Caves at Amazon
Low Prices on Caves. Free UK Delivery on Eligible Orders
Sponsored by: amazon.co.uk/Caves

Now there is something to think about. Empire building, conspiracy?
I aught to follow the link and see if I can pick up a few more.
 :lol:
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #80 on: May 17, 2016, 09:46:32 am »
They do in Cheddar Gorge.

It's very much the exception that proved the rule - one crag out of tens of thousands. One half is CROW/National Trust with a right of access and only a tiny fraction voluntarily banned (for public safety reasons). The other half would under normal circumstances be CROW but it is basically a 'show gorge' so isn't open access. What restrictions there are though are for public safety and usually seasonal - there is almost nowhere else where there is so much potential for loose rock to fall directly onto a road and a large number of visitors. The North side (the NT side) mostly doesn't nearly overhang the road.

Yes - climbers are perfectly capable of having a right of access and then adhering to a voluntary ban (whether for conservation reasons, public safety or nesting birds).

Online Ian Adams

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #81 on: May 17, 2016, 10:56:19 am »
..... people seem genuinely convinced that BCA is enhancing its reputation and good relations by using force of law to trample on landowners' wishes to control access to caves on their land, and on the other hand people consider this a form of antagonism of landowners

I think this is pretty unfair on the BCA.

At the last meeting in April, none of the committee members were using "force of law to trample on landowners' wishes".  Of course, the committee was not in unison but what was apparent was that there was respect for landowners regardless of which side of the fence each person was on.

Ian
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2016, 11:04:22 am »
Time will tell.

Online royfellows

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2016, 11:09:23 am »
..... people seem genuinely convinced that BCA is enhancing its reputation and good relations by using force of law to trample on landowners' wishes to control access to caves on their land, and on the other hand people consider this a form of antagonism of landowners

I think this is pretty unfair on the BCA.

At the last meeting in April, none of the committee members were using "force of law to trample on landowners' wishes".  Of course, the committee was not in unison but what was apparent was that there was respect for landowners regardless of which side of the fence each person was on.

Ian

I agree with this view. The law itself does a very good job all on its own without any help, I have said this before.

Consider the position of a landowner. Cant build anything without planning consent. Public may have rights of way, even for vehicles. Others may have rights over your land which could be mineral ownership, sporting rights, grazing rights, or 'restrictive covenants' or whatever, and then you have possible SAM and SSSI, and of course good old CROW itself.
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2016, 12:38:25 pm »
CAL policy is that access to the mines on its schedule should be as free and easy as possible, and bearing in mind that there are no conservation issues, does anyone feel this this should be done differently?

No  :thumbsup:
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #85 on: May 17, 2016, 01:43:01 pm »
There are landowners who are most definitely not impressed, to put it mildly, with the turn of events.

Name one.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #86 on: May 17, 2016, 02:02:07 pm »
We've already been here before on another thread and names weren't mentioned then and they are not going to be mentioned now, either.

Offline droid

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #87 on: May 17, 2016, 04:15:16 pm »
There are landowners who are most definitely not impressed, to put it mildly, with the turn of events.

Name one.

You first....:-)
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #88 on: May 17, 2016, 05:10:43 pm »
..... people seem genuinely convinced that BCA is enhancing its reputation and good relations by using force of law to trample on landowners' wishes to control access to caves on their land, and on the other hand people consider this a form of antagonism of landowners

I think this is pretty unfair on the BCA.

At the last meeting in April, none of the committee members were using "force of law to trample on landowners' wishes".  Of course, the committee was not in unison but what was apparent was that there was respect for landowners regardless of which side of the fence each person was on.

Ian

Nobody wants to trample on landowners' wishes. We know that some landowners have concerns about their liability when they give permission for caving. Hopefully we can get into a situation where one of the landowners' wishes is to see the removal of liability by the CRoW Act.

Offline droid

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #89 on: May 17, 2016, 05:18:14 pm »
So is that the situation we have NOW, or some 'wish-list' aspiration?

And which landowners are *currently* happy with CRoW? because if you are not willing to name names, it is somewhat 'off' for you to demand that someone else does.....
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Wayland Smith

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #90 on: May 17, 2016, 05:57:25 pm »
CROW CRAP!  :o

Why has the usual meaningless rubbish about Crow been dragged into this debate which began about a totally different subject.

If you want to wave your willies about Crow again do it on one of the numerous other debates.

Something for moderators to clean up?

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #91 on: May 17, 2016, 06:17:31 pm »
You mean like the moderator who thinks it's OK to make a contribution to it without resorting to ranting?

Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #92 on: May 17, 2016, 06:18:19 pm »
CROW CRAP!  :o

Why has the usual meaningless rubbish about Crow been dragged into this debate which began about a totally different subject.

If you want to wave your willies about Crow again do it on one of the numerous other debates.

Something for moderators to clean up?

unfortunately "a" moderator got in the middle of the "off topic" debate and should know better.
 moderate please and KEEP on topic

Offline badger

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #93 on: May 17, 2016, 06:22:17 pm »
yes lets keep on topic, which was a question asked about CAL and has I believe been answered.
CROW has nothing to do with CAL as it concerns access to mines, if I am correct on my understanding.

Online royfellows

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #94 on: May 17, 2016, 06:29:40 pm »
yes lets keep on topic, which was a question asked about CAL and has I believe been answered.
CROW has nothing to do with CAL as it concerns access to mines, if I am correct on my understanding.

I would say that you are.
 :thumbsup:
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Offline Rhys

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #95 on: May 17, 2016, 06:35:11 pm »
Global Moderator Comment OK everyone, put the handbags away and take the CROW talk elsewhere. This is a topic about access management groups. Any new CROW posts here will be deleted.

Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #96 on: May 17, 2016, 07:53:50 pm »
OK everyone, put the handbags away and take the CROW talk elsewhere. This is a topic about access management groups. Any new CROW posts here will be deleted.


thank you

Offline Rhys

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #97 on: May 17, 2016, 08:02:04 pm »
So, back on topic; The Charterhouse Caving Company who were mentioned earlier in the thread; do they have a procedure for replacing their company directors/personnel? What do they intend to do if one goes rogue?

I could direct the query to one of the company people or look at their website, but I don't want to. I'm asking here. Does anyone know?

Rhys

Offline Les W

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #98 on: May 17, 2016, 08:15:33 pm »
I believe the directors are appointed by the member clubs at the AGM so I assume those same clubs could remove a director if they wanted to.
I'm a very busy person

Offline Rhys

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Re: Access in private or democratic groups.
« Reply #99 on: May 17, 2016, 08:19:33 pm »
I see. Does Cave Access Ltd have an AGM or member clubs?