Author Topic: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!  (Read 6962 times)

Offline Duncan S

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Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« on: August 01, 2016, 01:54:44 pm »
Miri and I are off on expedition to North Spain later this month - it's exploratory caving and getting insurance for personal liability and medical cover is not straightforward.
Dog Tag and BMC won't provide cover, but Snow Card has an excellent policy and I'm sorted.
Unfortunately Snow Card is only available to UK residents, so no use to Miri.

Finnish insurance companies don't understand what caving is. Miri is having a nightmare trying to get insurance cover.
She has also tried the Alpine Club but it seems their policy will only cover exploratory caving if the trip is organised by the club.
My feeling is that there must be some sort of international organisation like the Alpine Club who can help her.

Can anyone suggest a company that will insure a non-UK based caver for exploratory caving?
All suggestions gratefully received - thanks!

Offline mikem

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2016, 02:15:02 pm »
I know the Austrian mountaineering association insurance will cover climbers from other countries, no idea if they'll do cavers though...

Mike

Online Mark Wright

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2016, 02:30:57 pm »
I'm just about to renew my annual snowcard insurance and noticed there is an option on their website for you on your own, you and your partner and family cover. I didn't follow the application process all the way through but maybe this could be an option for you and Miri?

I can't see the point of personal liability insurance for expedition caving, or any other caving for that matter, but rescue cover is a must. I actually get a better holiday insurance policy through my Lloyds bank account.

Mark

Offline Duncan S

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2016, 02:41:15 pm »
I know the Austrian mountaineering association insurance will cover climbers from other countries, no idea if they'll do cavers though...

Mike
Is that the same as the Austrian Alpine Club?

Online Rob

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2016, 02:45:59 pm »
I use ADAC, very reasonable and supported internally by a caver....
The end is where we start....

Offline Duncan S

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2016, 03:22:43 pm »
I'm just about to renew my annual snowcard insurance and noticed there is an option on their website for you on your own, you and your partner and family cover. I didn't follow the application process all the way through but maybe this could be an option for you and Miri?

I can't see the point of personal liability insurance for expedition caving, or any other caving for that matter, but rescue cover is a must. I actually get a better holiday insurance policy through my Lloyds bank account.

Mark
Snow Card only accepts UK residents, so going that route would be a big stretch of the truth...

Worst case is cave entrance gets descended on by a host of rescue services, for which the injured person is liable for covering their expenses. Have read of instances where this runs into millions because of the duration it takes to get an injured caver above ground. For me that's the big worry :)

Online Mark Wright

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2016, 03:56:45 pm »
As I said, rescue cover is a must. I've had two experiences of requiring the rescue services during a caving expedition.

The first was in Matienzo when Alan Box died in 1994. The rescue services wouldn't even enter the cave until they saw a copy of Alan's rescue insurance policy.

The second was in Mulu in 1996 when we had to pay for the helicopter by credit card to get Nick Jones out of the camp in the Hidden Valley. Because the helicopter company didn't have a copy of our insurance policy it had to be paid for before the helicopter took off and claimed back when we all got home.

The rescue in Peru is a good example of one that could run into millions.

Mark

Online Mark Wright

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2016, 03:59:51 pm »
As I said, rescue cover is a must. I've had two experiences of requiring the rescue services during a caving expedition.

The first was in Matienzo when Alan Box died in 1994. The rescue services wouldn't even enter the cave until they saw a copy of Alan's rescue insurance policy.

The second was in Mulu in 1996 when we had to pay for the helicopter by credit card to get Nick Jones out of the camp in the Hidden Valley. Because the helicopter company didn't have a copy of our insurance policy it had to be paid for before the helicopter took off and claimed back when we all got home.

The fairly recent rescue in Peru is a good example of one that could run into millions.

Mark

Offline Duncan S

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2016, 04:08:19 pm »
I use ADAC, very reasonable and supported internally by a caver....
The German motoring group?
Have you get a link to their insurance page that might be relevant please.
I struggled to find a sensible way off the home page.

Offline Duncan S

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2016, 04:08:49 pm »
As I said, rescue cover is a must. I've had two experiences of requiring the rescue services during a caving expedition.

The first was in Matienzo when Alan Box died in 1994. The rescue services wouldn't even enter the cave until they saw a copy of Alan's rescue insurance policy.

The second was in Mulu in 1996 when we had to pay for the helicopter by credit card to get Nick Jones out of the camp in the Hidden Valley. Because the helicopter company didn't have a copy of our insurance policy it had to be paid for before the helicopter took off and claimed back when we all got home.

The rescue in Peru is a good example of one that could run into millions.

Mark
Understood!
Many thanks

Offline Judi Durber

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2016, 06:34:31 pm »
I thought the Austrian Alpine Club covered caving but found this:

Is caving covered?
The AAC(UK) is a mountaineering, alpine sports and walking club. The only activities which are covered are those described in the AWS Leaflet , and only includes those caving activities which are organised by the AAC(UK) itself. Caving insurance is highly specialised and if you are a UK resident should be arranged through the British Caving Association or through any bone-fide UK Caving Club.
We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life waiting for us.

Offline Les W

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2016, 06:55:18 pm »
Dog Tag did cover Expo insurance, they covered us in Mulu in 2014, but I think somebody had to actually speak to them and there needs to be an established rescue organisation (not cave rescue necessarily) in the country you are going to, which there is in Spain so it ticks those boxes. It is probably worth contacting them about it.
I'm a very busy person

Offline Duncan S

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2016, 08:19:53 pm »
Dog Tag did cover Expo insurance, they covered us in Mulu in 2014, but I think somebody had to actually speak to them and there needs to be an established rescue organisation (not cave rescue necessarily) in the country you are going to, which there is in Spain so it ticks those boxes. It is probably worth contacting them about it.
Dog Tag is a non starter...
They have a specific exlusion on "Caving / Potholing - Exploratory" which means you get everything except Personal Accident and Personal Liability cover. Not much point in having it then...
See https://www.dogtag.com/sports/
I called them, and there is no way to upgrade to get rid of the exclusion.

Offline Duncan S

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2016, 08:21:20 pm »
I thought the Austrian Alpine Club covered caving but found this:

Is caving covered?
The AAC(UK) is a mountaineering, alpine sports and walking club. The only activities which are covered are those described in the AWS Leaflet , and only includes those caving activities which are organised by the AAC(UK) itself. Caving insurance is highly specialised and if you are a UK resident should be arranged through the British Caving Association or through any bone-fide UK Caving Club.
Somewhere buried in the small print is a statement that the AAC only covers exploratory caving if the expedition is organised by the AAC.
So it's a non starter too....

Offline Les W

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2016, 08:52:17 pm »
Dog Tag did cover Expo insurance, they covered us in Mulu in 2014, but I think somebody had to actually speak to them and there needs to be an established rescue organisation (not cave rescue necessarily) in the country you are going to, which there is in Spain so it ticks those boxes. It is probably worth contacting them about it.
Dog Tag is a non starter...
They have a specific exlusion on "Caving / Potholing - Exploratory" which means you get everything except Personal Accident and Personal Liability cover. Not much point in having it then...
See https://www.dogtag.com/sports/
I called them, and there is no way to upgrade to get rid of the exclusion.

But personal accident and liability are not the issue.

Rescue is!

BCA provide liability and personal accident is a choice thing.
Rescue is the expensive one and if Dogtag will cover that then the rest isn't really a problem.
I'm a very busy person

Online MarkS

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2016, 09:37:36 pm »
I agree with Les. Covering rescue costs is certainly the primary issue.

Most people I know have had dog tag insurance for expeditions over the last few years.

They've been very helpful when we've had questions about specifics of their cover too.

Offline complex

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2016, 10:08:09 pm »
Unfortunately dogtag will also only cover UK residents, so probably not going to work for Miri :(

Quote
She has also tried the Alpine Club but it seems their policy will only cover exploratory caving if the trip is organised by the club

It sounds as though the FCS should be organising an exploratory caving trip to Northern Spain that just happens to go on the same date and to the same area as another tip (even if she is the only member of FCS that goes). I'm sure that its possible to organise a brief website and official looking letter from the Finnish Underground Cave and Karst Exploratory Research in Spain (or somesuch exped :))

Cheerrs,
complex


Offline nickwilliams

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2016, 11:22:28 pm »
Try these people:

http://www.pjhayman.com
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Offline Duncan S

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2016, 08:53:18 am »
Try these people:

http://www.pjhayman.com
Many thanks - Miri has emailed them.

Offline Duncan S

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2016, 09:45:13 am »

Online maxb727

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2016, 02:11:46 pm »
Has Miri asked other European cavers such as those in Belgium/France what they do? Is it possible for her to join another organisation to get cover through them?

I cannot remember what my friends living abroad do for this but will try and ask.

Online Benfool

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2016, 02:20:58 pm »
Pretty sure the FFS (French version of the BCA) cover caving expeditions for non French people. Might be worth checking out their website.

B

Offline Duncan S

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2016, 04:08:05 pm »
Pretty sure the FFS (French version of the BCA) cover caving expeditions for non French people. Might be worth checking out their website.

B
At the moment, this seems to be her main hope.
But they haven't responded to her emails...

Online Mark Wright

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2016, 04:47:26 pm »
Pretty sure the FFS (French version of the BCA) cover caving expeditions for non French people. Might be worth checking out their website.

B

The FFS are offering rescue insurance to non French cavers attending this years FFS Berger expedition. I think you have to join the FFS on a temporary basis, a bit like having to temporarily join the TSG for insurance purposes to have access to Peak Cavern, if not a BCA member or member of a member club.

Mark

Offline Joel Corrigan

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Re: Expedition Insurance - Help Needed!
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2016, 04:49:31 pm »
Duncan, send me a DM if you like & I'll give you the contact details of my friend who works for ADAC so you can avoid the tricky German words on their website!

 

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