Author Topic: Anyone know who these four might be??  (Read 9567 times)

Offline alastairgott

  • 9 weeks till September...
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1553
  • silvestre en los bosques
    • SILVESTRE
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2017, 10:19:29 am »
Banksy - artist or vandal?.

Artist, Takes a clean (boring) wall and adds some colour to it in a comical or political way, which makes you think "is this art or vandalism". A typical arty question.

The scratching of names in walls is ok, I guess, if notable.
 I believe the northern bandit would agree, as would a few other notable Derbyshire scribes.
 Although the miners toast (speedwell) has had graffiti over some of the original inscriptions (or at least very near), which leads me to suggest that some of the very new graffiti here is exactly that, due to its lack of respect for older inscriptions (by writing over the top) and could only be described as "tagging", ie what neighbourhood scallys do.

Clearly the miners toast is newer than Neolithic and indeed some of the inscriptions included there are of [currently recent] historical note too (including the northern bandit) getting into speedwell from peak and various other milestones.

This in GG, I believe, is literally just tagging, but I guess we don't know what relationship these people have with Gaping Gill, whether they've been trying to get down for months making small amounts of Progress on each visit, till they eventually made their way down to the bottom. or whether they've had family members who have died down there.
 All probably unlikely, but I agree with what Simon said about welcoming them into the fold rather than casting them out, they clearly have some skills in caving.

Offline ah147

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 716
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2017, 10:33:20 am »
I would also argue for this being a case of education over prosecution.

I realise that this is damage etc but it looks like a bunch of young guys who've got off their arses and gone and done something! Simply not knowing any better they've scratched their names into the walls. Bring em into the fold and try to educate them a little and you might end up with a bunch of younger cavers in the throws of club caving as well as avoiding repeat issues.

Offline Goydenman

  • Black Sheep Digger
  • junky
  • ****
  • Posts: 933
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2017, 10:51:14 am »
I would also argue for this being a case of education over prosecution.

I realise that this is damage etc but it looks like a bunch of young guys who've got off their arses and gone and done something! Simply not knowing any better they've scratched their names into the walls. Bring em into the fold and try to educate them a little and you might end up with a bunch of younger cavers in the throws of club caving as well as avoiding repeat issues.

I agree. LIKE!

Online Mark Wright

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 698
  • NCC, BBPC
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2017, 11:01:39 am »
I don't like the tone of a lot of this. I don't know enough about this incident yet to make any sort of judgement.

Can you all say that you have never scratched on a cave wall? I know I have and it is documented in caving literature where and why I did it.

If we find out who they are I think it just might be best dealt with by giving them a friendly invitation to go caving with a club.

I totally agree with Simon on this.

I've got my name scribed on the wall opposite the miner's toast from when we connected Peak & Speedwell together.

Mark

Offline mikem

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2514
  • Mendip Caving Group
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2017, 11:02:25 am »
Certainly wouldn't have had permits!

Not terribly clear from the photo, but they seem to have done it on prussik knots (on dynamic rope):


Offline cooleycr

  • menacing presence
  • **
  • Posts: 160
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2017, 12:09:29 pm »
Is it a case of perspective here, after all it is not like they've smashed a load of stal to get there - so no 'real' damage in that sense, just doing what I imagine a lot of other people have done / thought about doing.. 

Simply by drilling a hole to fit an anchor plate the cave/mine has been damaged, perhaps in years to come that will be frowned upon?

These days with all the SM hosts, forums like this one along with printed publications, there is no need to scribe your initials in new (or re-discovered) systems/passages as a simple 'selfie' sent to (e.g) Descent should cover it and if it pleases you, post it on SM.

Personally I think that a quiet word would be suffice, as in please don't do it again, rather than a witch-hunt..

TSG

Offline Alex

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3848
  • BRCC, UWFRA.
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2017, 12:45:07 pm »
Quote
I would also argue for this being a case of education over prosecution.

I realise that this is damage etc but it looks like a bunch of young guys who've got off their arses and gone and done something! Simply not knowing any better they've scratched their names into the walls. Bring em into the fold and try to educate them a little and you might end up with a bunch of younger cavers in the throws of club caving as well as avoiding repeat issues.

I also agree, at least they are not like most in this country and stewing in-front of the TV and costing the NHS money by being obese. We should not punish them for getting out more they just need to know about the sport of caving and the rules we abide by. It looks like they just got a-hold of a guide book and headed on down, being adventurous youth. They could have got into trouble of course so all the more reason to educate them on the best ways of getting underground.
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline cavemanmike

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 542
  • ucet
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2017, 05:17:22 pm »
 :clap2: :clap2:the tone of the thread is in a much better place (until kenliworth comes along ::))
it might be an idea for somone to get in touch with them on facebook(im not on it) and give them a gentle nudge in the right direction or point them to this thread so they can see for themselves how points of view have changed

Offline ah147

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 716
Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2017, 05:20:46 pm »
:clap2: :clap2:the tone of the thread is in a much better place (until kenliworth comes along ::))
it might be an idea for somone to get in touch with them on facebook(im not on it) and give them a gentle nudge in the right direction or point them to this thread so they can see for themselves how points of view have changed

I've done both.

Hasten to add, it was well received and simply a case of not knowing it was taboo. Very apologetic etc
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 05:33:07 pm by ah147 »

Offline cavemanmike

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 542
  • ucet
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2017, 05:46:45 pm »
:clap2: :clap2:the tone of the thread is in a much better place (until kenliworth comes along ::))
it might be an idea for somone to get in touch with them on facebook(im not on it) and give them a gentle nudge in the right direction or point them to this thread so they can see for themselves how points of view have changed

I've done both.

Hasten to add, it was well received and simply a case of not knowing it was taboo. Very apologetic etc

 well done

Offline andrewmc

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 726
  • EUSS, BEC, YSS, prov. SWCC...
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2017, 05:47:47 pm »
Certainly wouldn't have had permits!

although whether they need permits or not remains legally unclear, of course, so probably a bad thing to worry about :P

Offline ah147

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 716
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2017, 05:56:17 pm »
If anything this goes to prove the irrelevance of permits, in this case at least. Nobody would have noticed two trips in there st all if it wasn't for the graffiti.

Permits are stupid.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Ed

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 131
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2017, 05:57:38 pm »
You xan see day lighr from the main chamber.....

Offline cavemanmike

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 542
  • ucet
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2017, 05:59:59 pm »
Certainly wouldn't have had permits!

although whether they need permits or not remains legally unclear, of course, so probably a bad thing to worry about :P
someone trying to start another crow fight  :ang: :ang: :ang:

Offline mikem

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2514
  • Mendip Caving Group
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2017, 06:21:29 pm »
Permit reference was purely as a way of finding out who they were.

Offline alanw

  • addict
  • **
  • Posts: 110
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2017, 07:42:44 pm »
I would also argue for this being a case of education over prosecution.

Graffiti is one thing, going poorly equipped into a system with several non-obvious dangers is another.

There is the drop on the left just as you get to the squeeze through to the top of the main Bar Pot shaft, where the traverse line normally starts.

There is the drop on the left just before you get to SE Pot, which now has scaffold bars across it, after a previous incident.

And the drop into SE Pot itself as you scramble along the ledges.

I've personally had to wait at the bottom of the top pitch of Bar while someone got themselves stuck. Another caver turned up and I led him out through Small Mammal and we surfaced just as they were extracted.

Education is a must before they get themselves into serious trouble.

Offline MJenkinson

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 476
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2017, 07:54:30 pm »

Permits are stupid.


HOW DARE YOU!!!!!!!

Offline Simon Wilson

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1645
    • IC Resin Anchor
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2017, 08:23:14 pm »
" also scratched my name and the date on the wall in part of the GG system"


Why?

Have you done Hensler's Pot? It's why Burnley Pitch is named. It's recorded in the annals of BPC.

Offline Chocolate fireguard

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 372
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2017, 08:46:28 pm »

Graffiti is one thing, going poorly equipped into a system with several non-obvious dangers is another.

There is the drop on the left just as you get to the squeeze through to the top of the main Bar Pot shaft, where the traverse line normally starts.

There is the drop on the left just before you get to SE Pot, which now has scaffold bars across it, after a previous incident.

And the drop into SE Pot itself as you scramble along the ledges.

I've personally had to wait at the bottom of the top pitch of Bar while someone got themselves stuck. Another caver turned up and I led him out through Small Mammal and we surfaced just as they were extracted.

Education is a must before they get themselves into serious trouble.
I know you mean well, but don't you think they knew there would be problems/dangers apart from negotiating the ropes in both directions, and that might have been part of the challenge?
They are old enough to be out on their own,  fit and able enough (if they did use knots rather than jammers) and organised enough to get there and get underground (more than could be said for a few trips I've "organised").
Apart from the graffiti I think it was a creditable achievement and it would be unfair to suggest to them that luck played more of a part in their success and survival than it does in any serious caving trip.
I wonder how many times they banged their heads?

Offline mikem

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2514
  • Mendip Caving Group
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2017, 11:21:14 pm »
I wonder how many times they banged their heads?
Probably not a lot, it's much harder to judge required clearance when you're wearing a helmet.

Offline ah147

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 716
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2017, 12:56:25 am »
I have been asked to post this by one of the members of the group on the trip.

As I said earlier, and others have guessed, decent lads who are just having a go to the best of their knowledge and ability. 

Quote

I'm not too sure where to start with this one as it's been a little overwhelming reading all the comments both on facebook and on the forum. I tried to make an account on the forum but there seems to be some kind of validation system so I've chosen you as you seem pretty human and understanding. I suppose it would make sense to give my viewpoint and then maybe people will realise where I'm coming from.

Me and my brother's have always been the outdoorsy type people, always willing to go out and try stuff out. About a year ago we went up to Malham cove in the morning to watch the sunrise. Up there we saw a slackline across the cove and we thought," that looks ace", so we went out and we bought ourselves a slackline and learning the skills from the internet, as most people do these days.

Around a month ago, the same thing sort of happened. We went out for a walk to Gaping Gill and was blown away by it. We ended up looking around crevices as you do, just exploring the area. We came across a hole,(to which we now know is called Bar Pot) and saw the anchors in the wall. Instinct was to look down, we realised we would need some sort of rigging equipment to get down there.

Thats's where youtube comes in, I know it's probably frowned upon using youtube to learn things but we were curious on how we would be able to decend and ascend the hole. Had a lovely time at GoOutdoors getting "all the gear" (still no idea).

We came back after practicing what we had learnt and descended down the first drop and carefully made our way downwards until we found the larger 30M drop. Gutted yet amazed we headed home and left it for yet another day.

After another trip to go outdoors we arrived again, this time with more rigging equipment, It's probably not the best of ideas returning over and over after realising we are still yet unequipped but this all added to the excitement when we did return with enough equipment for the decent. We lowered ourselves down one by one and then began to head to Gill. We crawled through various tunnels until we heard the roar of Gill and finally got there and felt a real sense of achievement, We looked around and found loads of stals. I was saddened to see that some had been snapped off, maybe by accident or on purpose but nether the less it was a shame.

On our way back we noticed the amount of engravings saying which way was back. We then reached part of the passage where we could stand for a while and take a breather. As we were doing so we noticed that other people had engraved their names around this area of the passage and so there assumed that it must be where people engrave their initials. We also took part in this. I made sure that I did it out of the way others engravings as I didn't want to ruin an old marking. I'm not one to post everything on social media as I think it stops it from being special. We carried on our journey and returned home.

This morning my friend sent me the link to the UKcaving forum showing what we had done. I've been reading the updates on this throughout the day and taken into consideration every comment. Some are quite humbling, especially the opportunity to go with and gather some caving experience - despite doing what has upset a large amount of people from the caving community. I know the most sincere apology wouldn't change the circumstances because what's done is done. I can also tell that there's a lot of understanding people out there too who don't know where the line is drawn. We didn't even know there was a line, we didn't know what the SSSI is, who Natural England are, that you needed a permit to go caving. We literally just saw a hole and decided we wanted to go down it.

Hope this is readable as I'm tired yet unable to sleep trying to get this of my chest.

Thank you!


Offline Oceanrower

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2017, 01:46:07 am »
Can't really argue with that.  :beer2:


Offline Kenilworth

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 610
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2017, 02:06:07 am »

Offline Kenilworth

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 610
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2017, 04:55:07 am »
Quote
They are old enough to be out on their own,  fit and able enough (if they did use knots rather than jammers) and organised enough to get there and get underground (more than could be said for a few trips I've "organised").
Apart from the graffiti I think it was a creditable achievement and it would be unfair to suggest to them that luck played more of a part in their success and survival than it does in any serious caving trip.

Amen again.

I did my first dozen or so pits with prusiks (learned from an old climbing book) on dynamic rope before an upgrade to jugging dynamic with handled ascenders. No clue what I was doing, but one of the great joys in life is figuring things out with your own noggin.

Offline estelle

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 468
  • GSG & BEC - Everything to Excess!
Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2017, 07:48:02 am »
Can't really argue with that.  :beer2:
Reading that, I'm amazed they got that far unscathed, but really hope that they get involved with the caving community and do some more trips, perhaps with a bit of help on safer kit and techniques as while they made a conservation mistake, they sound like the kind of keen young uns you want in your caving club.  :beer2:
What you say about me says more about you than it does about me.