Author Topic: New Petzl Stop  (Read 2661 times)

Offline MarkS

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New Petzl Stop
« on: January 19, 2019, 06:01:37 pm »
Not released yet I assume since I can't see anything on the Petzl site (although I've not looked thoroughly) but I saw these photos on Facebook, apparently from a Chinese trade fair.

I don't use a Stop, but I thought people might be interested!



Online aricooperdavis

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2019, 06:17:42 pm »
Wow, that looks like quite a significant change - are they going down the Rig-style pull handle route? It looks like it's added to the bulk a bit.

Offline Pete K

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2019, 06:48:38 pm »
You just beat me to posting this. Looking forward to seeing the user instructions and getting my hands on one to play with.

http://www.peakinstruction.com/blog/new-petzl-stop/ if interested. Not that I have anything more to go on than the photos in the OP.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2019, 06:50:20 pm »
Instant non-fan.

Offline MarkS

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2019, 07:44:26 pm »
Instant non-fan.

Any particular reason?

Offline Chocolate fireguard

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2019, 08:07:43 pm »
So it looks as though as well as making it easier to operate they have done away with the "clutch & plummet" - or as it would be on this version the "pull & plummet" - by profiling that black cam so if the handle is pulled down too far the pointy bit of the cam reverses the gradual anticlockwise (seen by the caver) rotation of the bottom bobbin and the rope is grabbed.
Or am I imagining that?

Offline MarkS

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2019, 08:24:30 pm »
So it looks as though as well as making it easier to operate they have done away with the "clutch & plummet" - or as it would be on this version the "pull & plummet" - by profiling that black cam so if the handle is pulled down too far the pointy bit of the cam reverses the gradual anticlockwise (seen by the caver) rotation of the bottom bobbin and the rope is grabbed.
Or am I imagining that?

From Mark W's prototype version, I don't think that was the case. I'm sure he can confirm though.

The new Simple looks similar to the current one (unsurprisingly), but potentially with identical top & bottom bobbins?



Oh, and a couple more Stop photos:



No doubt all these new versions will come with significantly upgraded price tags too.

Online PaulW

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2019, 08:28:57 pm »

From Mark W's prototype version, I don't think that was the case. I'm sure he can confirm though.

New Simple looks similar to the current one (unsurprisingly), but potentially with identical top & bottom bobbins?



Oh, and a couple more Stop photos:

[img widht=250]https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50096366_2011642625588732_7579214953437986816_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=c802c11015317963dbb3caf4e22a8082&oe=5CCE4FAF[/img]

And as Pete says in his blog link write up a new modified Frenio

Online MJenkinson

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2019, 09:41:54 pm »
I’ve just read elsewhere that you can’t disenagage the lock on the new stop (as you can with a crab on old one) and you can’t replace bobbins?

This was off FB though so could be a load of twoddle

Offline Pete K

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2019, 09:56:24 pm »
It certainly does not appear that you can disable the brake assist, which is not a big issue for me.
There are no hex heads on the bobbin pins, so it looks like it can't have them replaced. It does however look to me that both bobbins are stainless steel, which will increase the life anyway. One of the firms I work with could wear out an alloy Stop bobbin in 2 weeks. Since we switched to Kong Indy Evo with stainless, they last 6 months.
I can't wait to try this new Stop out against my new version RIG. I'm not sure cavers will love the new Stop, but for instructors, it does tick some boxes the old one does not.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 10:05:58 pm by Pete K »

Offline Pete K

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2019, 10:00:12 pm »
That little hole on the handle intrigues me. It seems too deliberate to be a pre-production type mould mark or blemish. It must have a purpose. Maybe for tying a cord through to use it in a very confined space. I suppose it could even be adapted into some kind of toggle where a left-hand amputee could use a simple pull motion with a prosthetic to use the handle.
I'm probably over thinking it.

Online thomasr

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2019, 10:00:46 pm »
I think we must remind ourselves that these gadgets tools or whatevever are designed in the first intance to suit the needs of industry who arent really into changing bobbins. As noted before the needs of cavers are more secondary.

Offline Stuart France

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2019, 10:26:07 pm »
I don't use a Stop either but the new one looks very pretty.

I thought I'd share my homebrew descender with you all.  I've use it for a couple of years.  Smooth to use and accurate to stay stopped level with a bolt.  It weight 350g, about the same as the old Petzl Stop.   Since I took these photos, I've shortened the titanium side bars a bit and removed the excess thread.  All parts are replaceable and the sliding bars are the standard Petzl ones.  The "angle iron" top and bottom plates are aerospace aluminium.



Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2019, 06:58:09 am »
Instant non-fan.

Any particular reason?

Yes: the handle and the studs - I've not used one but from the photos (for which, thanks!) the following leap out:

Heavy indents will collect clay, as will the little hole and the gap between the plates/cams
The handle is long and narrow and looks like a snag/poke potential
Locking off (single handed one-move is possible with present Stop); I'm intrigued how the various lock-off configurations with the present Stop are replicated with this new one
Extremely confined descents are routinely managed by extending present Stop on a short safety connector but the handle is still easily within reach - the new one looks like the handle will be a greater stretch to get hold of
If used in an exceptionally muddy environment the new Stop handle and body will become a long clump of mud and getting the handle open looks like it would be fiddly
Is there a handle function override? (i.e. the present Stop can be converted to function as a Simple)
It looks significantly bigger (given the handle) than the old one, and presumably heavier?
Locking off when using class L ropes and twin braking carabiners it looks as though the handle on the new one has a likelihood of becoming linked into the higher braking carabiner.
The studs holding the bobbins don't look in-field user serviceable like the present Stop (spannerable) and the bobbins appear solid (are they?) - if they are not solid how can you visually ascertain wear depth with regard to proximity of need to replace?
The leverage of the handle, combined with finger-sized gaps between it and the body: it looks like pinch injuries could predictably occur.

It would be interesting to try one to see whether any of these are issues or whether they've all been considered and countered by the (usually ingenius) Petzl design team: I'm a great fan of Petzl (not *everything* they do, though - e.g. Freino, triact gates etc. etc.) so please don't think I'm being anti - it might be the best thing since sliced bread.

I'll be v interested to hear Mike Hopley's thoughts.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 07:09:40 am by Cap'n Chris »

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2019, 07:04:44 am »
So it looks as though as well as making it easier to operate they have done away with the "clutch & plummet"

Petzl overcome user error by insisting on competent* training before use.

* Not someone saying "To go down you press that handle".

Offline andrewmc

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2019, 08:54:24 am »
I think we must remind ourselves that these gadgets tools or whatevever are designed in the first intance to suit the needs of industry who arent really into changing bobbins. As noted before the needs of cavers are more secondary.

That probably used to be true for the Stop, but I don't think it's probably true any more. I suspect this new Stop was designed primarily for caving. The I'D and the Rig are the industrial descenders - and even then the Rig is only for 'expert' users as it lacks the extra safety features of the I'D. What I would really be interested to see is the rope range it is rated for - I'm assuming that it will, unlike the industrial descenders, moved to smaller rope diameters in the same way caving has moved to smaller rope diameters. Look at how the GriGri moved to smaller rope diameters when it went from v1 to v2.

Edit: and zooming in, I can see it's now rated 8.5 to 11mm; so they haven't reduced the top end (possibly to cater to horrible fixed ropes) but it will probably be better on 8mm than current Stops (it is French, after all...).

Offline Mike Hopley

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2019, 05:20:12 pm »
I'll be v interested to hear Mike Hopley's thoughts.

Well, my instant reaction is:

  • That looks interesting, I'd like to play with it.
  • I doubt I'll buy one though, as I like my Simple.

Other than that, I'm pretty much echoing Pete's thoughts from his blog. I'd like to see how it functions both as a descender and a lifelining / belay device.

The design looks influenced by their rope access devices. I'm guessing it's a "double brake" descender, to eliminate clutch-and-plummet. Of course, "training / proper use" is a good answer to that, but improving equipment is also valid. The only concern would be how the extra safety feature affects ease of use. I haven't had a chance to try many double-brake descenders, but the ones I have seemed clunky.

The longer handle and pulling action could be more comfortable, especially for thicker/stiffer ropes (this is one thing I always hated about the Stop). I wonder whether Petzl intends the handle to be used for controlling descent speed? From the front plate picture, I guess not.

As Chris mentioned, what about really tight pitch heads? I'd hope there was still some way to disable the handle for these (but I really can't see one), or it could be troublesome. I wouldn't be too worried about mud in the indents though, as it doesn't seem that would interfere with the device. And I reckon the handle could be less snaggy in practice than the current one, as it's up and away from most snaggable things. Only experience will tell.

Being a Freino user, i'm also interested in that design change. They may have eliminated a common annoyance: cowstails clipping themselves through the spur at offset rebelays. But will it still be as slick to lock/unlock?

Offline andrewmc

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2019, 10:25:22 pm »
It's not got an anti-panic handle - the Stop is a basic device for caving with none of the bells and whistles of their larger/heavier industrial descenders. Cavers would only complain about it...

Realistically you use the handle to control descent speed on every single Petzl descender _except_ the Stop, and that's only because the handle is crap, so I assume you use the handle to control descent speed on the new Stop like you do on an I'D, or a Rig, or a GriGri...

Offline MarkS

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2019, 08:01:36 pm »
A review starts at 0:44



Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2019, 09:00:51 pm »
Thank you MarkS for this link - very helpful and interesting to see.

As it's no longer user-serviceable it must presumably now be considered a disposable item with an unknown life span.

I'm guessing it won't be cheaper than a standard Stop so at approximately £100 it's going to have to be amazing to justify ownership. IIRC the standard Stops routinely wore through bobbins during the course of many an expedition (I recall seeing photos of masses of worn out bobbins from a single China expedition some years back, for instance). OK so the new one has stainless steel bobbins but taking additional £100 Stops with you in case yours wear out while overseas doesn't seem realistic, so the wear characteristics and resulting performance will be highly interesting - so much so that it's possibly worth buying one and testing it to destruction to see how long one actually lasts on gritty rope and what happens if you continue to use it once it's worn.

I have misgivings about the pull-down handle as I can visualise situations where that could fail-dangerous and not by user error, as is presently the case (sadly).

PS. The presenter has an unusual SRT configuration but that's irrelevant here but I imagine it was to help with camera angle/viewpoint.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 10:54:18 pm by Cap'n Chris »

Offline caving_fox

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2019, 09:13:42 am »
Take home point - no replacing the bobbins when they wear out. (But as they're stainless may wear less badly).

Otherwise from a practical point of view in most cases doesn't seem too different. Less pull on the handle will help for longer descents, and perhaps the smaller profile will aid on narrow stuff.
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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2019, 09:26:07 am »
The change in EN standard is significant. Now EN 15151-1 (braking device with manual assisted locking); think GrIGri or other belay devices, so designed with belaying as well as descending in mind?

EN341, which the old (20 yrs without change!!) STOP conformed relates to a descending device for rescue.

It'll be interesting to look at the associated manufactures instructions and on-line resources from Petzl when it comes out.

Offline Badlad

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2019, 09:37:19 am »
I've tried out the prototype down Rowter Hole.  I also got the sense that it was more positive on the rope when stopping or going.  I'll stick with the old Stop for now as I am used to it but I can see me considering this device in the future.

Not everyone liked the Stop and not everyone will like this device but I expect we'll see lot's of cavers with one over the next decade and it will become the norm.  Everything moves forward and I think this is a forward step.

Offline royfellows

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2019, 12:43:27 pm »
I like the look of it but may not like the price!

Old Stop I hard lock on the handle so would have to learn new tricks or have my day spoilt.
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Online aricooperdavis

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2019, 04:09:40 pm »
Old Stop I hard lock on the handle so would have to learn new tricks or have my day spoilt.

I too like using the handle to do that semi-hard lock, but it's not in the Petzl guidance. They do recommend using the handle when soft-locking though (which I do only when I'm not using a friction crab or the spur on the Freino) so I'll be interested to see how that changes. In the review video (from about 04:00 till 04:40) he does two locks, one soft style lock using the spur on the Freino, which I've not seen done before, and also the usual hard lock.

Looks like an interesting improvement, I look forward to being able to afford trying it out!