Author Topic: New Petzl Stop  (Read 7810 times)

Offline Mike Hopley

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2019, 04:50:38 pm »
...one soft style lock using the spur on the Freino, which I've not seen done before

That's actually Petzl's recommended full lock-off, from their instructions [PDF].

It creeps occasionally on very thin or slippery ropes, but otherwise is very convenient.

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2019, 04:50:38 pm »
Warmbac

Offline alastairgott

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2019, 05:37:57 pm »

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2019, 08:23:47 am »
titter..., semi-hard  :lol:

I shall henceforth refer to it as a flaccid-lock :lol:

Offline nihil_enochian

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2020, 09:48:40 pm »
This is an old post, but does anyone else tried this new stop and what are your opinions about it? Does anyone used it for self rescue or cave rescue? My club is planing to buy a few of them  but we can't find enough informations of it.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2020, 11:35:28 pm »
We have several at work. All the instructors dislike them
 We have reverted to using the original ones instead
 I believe Petzl have made an error of judgement with this product.

Offline David Rose

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2020, 09:58:02 am »
Tell us more, Chris. Why don't they like them? They're using them more than most of us would, so this is valuable info!

Online mikem

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2020, 10:48:24 am »
Think it may be mainly what they are used to - I hate abseiling with a GriGri, where the handle is in a very similar position, so you can't wrap your fingers around the device.

Offline GT

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2020, 12:10:13 pm »
Personally I've mixed views on it, but only used for relatively short pitches to date so limited experience. I find the handle easier to use and control, seems as smooth to use as the old stop. Cant make an assessment on wear. I'm using it with the new frieino grab with mixed views in that it snags on things occasionally and pulls the rope over the side plate of the stop so is bound to make it wear quickly; but that was the case with the older version. One of the issues I have with it is in use I find I instinctively end up with my elbow out to use the handle which is a right pain in a snug pitch, just something that needs re-training...

I think the main issue for me is the change in EN standard, in that its EN15151-Type 5. That standard is for a belay device, but critically the "Type 5" classification relates to it being a belay device for single person abseil only (i.e. not belaying a climber). The older version with EN341 which was a rescue descender so could abseil with a 2 person load. It wasn't rated for belaying although was used (probably still is) by many. There was a bit of a mix up by Petzl when they translated the instructions of the old Stop from French to English and used the term "belaying" in their instructions but the device was never tested or designed to be used for belaying. The same is true for the new stop (despite what was written in a recent review in Descent). So for work I'll not be using the new stop, it's just not versatile enough. Petzl have confirmed this. Incidentally they also confirmed you can use the new stop to rig a Tyrolean.

Online mikem

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2020, 12:34:00 pm »
I suspect the alternative standards didn't exist when the Stop was originally designed. Of course, it is cheaper to only apply for the "lower" standard, due to limited market & other devices being available now.

Offline samh

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2020, 01:02:33 pm »
I got one just after Christmas.
I'm best described as a soft southern lightweight (yet fat) caver, so my gear never gets a thorough trashing, but with that caveat, here goes.

The handle action is great, and more intuitive. You don't get hand cramp on longer pitches. Easier to use in cramped conditions. The entrance to Link Pot springs to mind here.
Locking off with my (old style) Freino is a doddle.

It goes down when you want it to, and doesn't when you don't.

I haven't put it through any serious mud yet, so can't comment on how it handles that.

I like it.

Offline Badlad

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2020, 02:00:57 pm »
I suspect the alternative standards didn't exist when the Stop was originally designed. Of course, it is cheaper to only apply for the "lower" standard, due to limited market & other devices being available now.

I remember when the original Stop had 'maximum load 750kg' on it.  The design never changed much but the way loading was determined did and reduced it to 150kg.

PS: I like the new stop.  The downside I expect is the price and the fact that it will wear more quickly and you won't be able to replace parts.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2020, 03:00:24 pm »
If you are just going to complain about the handle being awkward to use etc. just buy a Simple.
If you want to use it for belaying _to a standard_ (but much much easier than a Stop) and self-rescue and other things etc. (and actually want it to reliably lock up although I expect the new Stop is better than the old one for this) then buy a Rig (or similar).
If you want a Stop, buy a Stop. Just remember what a stop is - it is a single person caving (semi-)locking descender which is relatively low profile and fairly bombproof. It is not a belay device. It is not a (good) self-rescue device. It is not a (good) hauling device, or for belaying for an anchor, or a (even vaguely usable) backup ascender... It _is_ a spanner for your central maillon, and can use it to bash things with because it is (and only is) a caving descender.
Simples (pun not intended).

There are lots of other things you _can_ do with a Stop, but better devices exist for those purposes.

Online mikem

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2020, 04:32:33 pm »
But a GriGri without a handle would be as much use as a chocolate fireguard...

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2020, 05:36:32 pm »
If you want to use it for belaying _to a standard_ (but much much easier than a Stop) and self-rescue and other things etc. (and actually want it to reliably lock up although I expect the new Stop is better than the old one for this) then buy a Rig (or similar).

The problem with the Rig (for me at least) is the minimum rated rope diameter of 10mm, compared to the Stop's 8.5mm. I feel like there's an (unexploitably small) gap in the market for a rope-access/self-positioning style descender with a broader diameter range. The Gri-Gri doesn't really fit the bill because you can't lock it off...

Offline Brains

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2020, 06:53:21 pm »
I find the classic Stop a highly versatile piece of kit if you can be bothered to learn how to use it effectively.
I see no reason as yet to re-invent the wheel and pay through the nose for it.

People seem to have got into the mentality that auto locking devices are "good" and non-locking are "bad" - which of course is oversimplified at the least! To be left suspended in your harness for >10 mins can be fatal, but to hit the floor can be painful (and also fatal). Do your buddies know how to get your unconscious body off a pitch in under 10 mins, with whatever fancy device you have been using? At what point is it "better" to cut the rope and let a causality hit the floor than die from suspension trauma? Just a few what ifs to add to the mix...

Offline Mike Hopley

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2020, 10:20:32 pm »
At what point is it "better" to cut the rope and let a causality hit the floor than die from suspension trauma?

The answer to that is probably "never".

Suspension trauma can kill very rapidly, but you really have no way of knowing when it will kick in. It's still not especially well understood, not least because experiments on volunteers were deemed too dangerous to continue.

Consider the case of Toni Kurz, who lasted a whole night on the Eiger hanging in his harness, and continued to fight for life for several hours the next day.

Whereas we know for certain that letting someone fall to the ground -- even just a few metres -- is going to seriously injure or kill them.

Offline Fjell

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2020, 11:26:33 pm »
Has anyone ever been rescued unconscious mid-rope from a Stop in a cave? I have always thought the “saving your life” thing to be the least useful bit a Stop could do. A Simple with a Handy is certainly nicer to use. Be interesting to see what would happen if you let go, might not fall that fast. Volunteers needed.
I have used a Stop on a 160m free hang, and the main problem is how toasty it gets if the rope is dry, rather than being able to hold in the handle. I would have been more disturbed if the rope was running over the side plates and sawing away at the krab it was attached to. Particularly when you can see the floor in amazing detail on the way down.
A piece of kit I am more sold on to carry is the Traxion and simple pulley with the ball bearings. And a tube if you think you might need to belay.

Online mikem

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2020, 11:48:55 pm »
The Gri-Gri doesn't really fit the bill because you can't lock it off...
Of course you can: https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Tying-off-the-GRIGRI-to-have-your-hands-free

Consider the case of Toni Kurz, who lasted a whole night on the Eiger hanging in his harness, and continued to fight for life for several hours the next day.
Although Kurz wasn't using a harness, as climbers weren't "hanging around" on routes until the 1960s. I suspect his long survival may have more to do with the response of our bodies to cold - c.f. Beck Weathers' recovery on Everest, or drowning victims being revived after extended periods in arctic waters.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 12:16:35 am by mikem »

Offline andrewmc

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2020, 01:42:27 am »
The problem with the Rig (for me at least) is the minimum rated rope diameter of 10mm, compared to the Stop's 8.5mm.

New Rig is rated for 9mm rope (on one of the standards). My old Rig locked up happily on (some) 8mm rope.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2020, 01:44:17 am »
Has anyone ever been rescued unconscious mid-rope from a Stop in a cave?

A cynic might suggest that on modern ropes a 'safety feature' of the Stop is that your unconscious abseiling casualty will be automatically lowered to the bottom of the pitch (hopefully not too quickly) as the Stop creeps down the rope...

Also the Stop was rated under some standard to 100m descent at 1m/s, and the Rig to 200m presumably due to better heat absorption.

Offline GT

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2020, 10:39:45 am »


Worth a watch

GriGris are not appropriate underground. They wear out too quickly (modern lighter weight devices)

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2020, 11:32:57 am »

Offline Tseralo

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Re: New Petzl Stop
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2020, 07:36:54 pm »
Of course you can: https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Tying-off-the-GRIGRI-to-have-your-hands-free

Interesting, I didn't know that, thanks!

You can also do something akin to a hard lock as you would a stop/simple like device obviously not manufacturer-recommended, but works and doesn't need a krab.

 

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