Author Topic: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale  (Read 5517 times)

Offline droid

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2019, 03:55:49 pm »
Perhaps attending the AGM and talking to these people, the mysterious un-nameable 'old guard' might help make progress?

You could also vote.

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Online Ian Adams

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2019, 04:22:33 pm »
Is the BCA supposed to represent the interests of all cavers and not just those who belong to majority groups?


It also seems to appear that (some of) the various candidates for the forthcoming elections are not only anti-CRoW but also anti-progress (one of whom actively fought against the referendum result). Fair enough per se.


You seem to have missed the last four words of that statement BradW (weren’t you a solicitor?)


Mr Droid,

It is perfectly reasonable to ask a postee on a forum for clarification of a statement that has been made without escalating to AGM. Also, isn’t the matter of voting precisely one of the moot issues?


Ian


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Offline droid

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2019, 04:45:06 pm »
It is perfectly reasonable to ask a postee on a forum for clarification of a statement that has been made without escalating to AGM. Also, isn’t the matter of voting precisely one of the moot issues?


Ian

It is one of the moot issues, but you've got to be there to vote, as I understand the *current* procedure.

Play the hand you've got, not the hand you wish you had.
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Online Ian Adams

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2019, 05:01:27 pm »
Play the hand you've got, not the hand you wish you had.


I am asking for clarity of the hand that is on the table.

Fair enough?


Ian
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Offline droid

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2019, 05:08:26 pm »
You are asking for clarification of *part* of it.

In your missive above, you remarked on 'the old guard' and the anti-CRoW 5th columnists.
You have to be at the AGM to make a difference to the personnel on the Council. You have to be at the AGM to ask them what the **** they think they are doing.

That was the major part of your missive in terms of verbiage.
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Online Ian Adams

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2019, 05:44:17 pm »
In your missive above, you remarked on 'the old guard' and the anti-CRoW 5th columnists.

I referred to what other people had posted on this thread (and other similar threads). I did so because I was challenged on my initial question to Jenny P (you were one such challenge). The challenges sought to address the question I asked (which, of course, they do) but neither address the wider implication to the question to which I was alluding.

The purpose of the reference(s) was to expand on the rationale behind asking the question (to clarify the intent) and to solicit a “proper” answer.

Fair enough?


Ian

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Offline droid

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2019, 05:52:28 pm »
You have had clarification.

I'm not particularly a fan of the CRoW campaign, but I saw in Jenny' replies that it was being addressed.

You are either nitpicking or not reading these replies.


You are also avoiding the question of why such a vociferous critic of elements of the BCA executive seems not to confirm they'll be at the AGM to try to influence the votes for that executive.
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Online Ian Adams

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2019, 06:56:44 pm »
You have had clarification.

I have not. The question remains unanswered.

Quote from: droid
You are either nitpicking or not reading these replies.

Odd statement that, coming from you.


Quote from: droid
You are also avoiding the question of why such a vociferous critic of elements of the BCA executive seems not to confirm they'll be at the AGM to try to influence the votes for that executive.

No such question was asked. In any event, hasn’t the deadline for nominations passed? Aren’t the people named in the thread going to be appointed without a vote regardless of who does or does not attend? 

I have been asking for clarity on what the BCA are doing in respect of CRoW in lieu of the various posts made on this thread (and others) which appear to suggest foul play. Of course, those posts may be totally unfounded. The answer that Jenny P provides may well put the issue to bed.

Any sensible person may well try to ascertain details/facts before jumping to conclusions, right?  Similarly, would they not also seek to clarify a position ahead of making a decision to attend an AGM (in the event, of course, that there is no issue at all?)

I consider that you have now successfully obfuscated this thread to prevent the question I asked from being properly answered. I have therefore sent a private message to Jenny asking for clarification.


Ian



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Offline mikem

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2019, 07:20:50 pm »
Unless Pro-CROW candidates stand for council, it is going to take longer to get there.

Or they can just go caving...

Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2019, 08:19:16 pm »
I hope I can possibly clarify the BCA position on CRoW. 

The BCA will campaign to ensure the CRoW Act applies to caving.  That is ongoing and BCA has a CRoW group working on that which is headed by David Rose.  Myself and a few others sit on that group.  Unfortunately, there is only one issue that has dominated national policy in the last few years and that is Brexit.  Never the less we have continued the campaign where we can.  Just today the group has received some welcome support from an influential politician.

Of significance is the BCA policy on CRoW which has been ratified by the membership and which will guide any issue which comes before BCA regardless of personal opinions of any officers.  The first line of that policy is;

"1.   The British Caving Association holds the opinion that the CRoW Act already permits access for recreational caving."

We do what we can with our limited resources.  The direction is set by poll, by ballot and by following the full democratic process of the BCA despite some determined opposition.  Some may disagree and that is their prerogative but the position of BCA has been determined.  We continue our efforts but BCA focus is now towards modernisation and that is what features prominently at this years AGM.  I hope the majority will support those efforts and individuals which stand for them.

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Online Ian Adams

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2019, 08:36:58 pm »
Thank you Mr Badlad, precisely the kind of answer that was being looked for.

 :)

Ian
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Offline droid

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2019, 06:34:56 am »

Quote from: droid
You are also avoiding the question of why such a vociferous critic of elements of the BCA executive seems not to confirm they'll be at the AGM to try to influence the votes for that executive.

No such question was asked.

I asked it on several occasions.

My point being that several of the 'old guard'/5th Columnists will be at the AGM, and face to face discussion is always better than pontificating on a forum where several of the significant actors are absent.

If you think that's obfuscation the so be it.

Fair enough?   ;D
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Offline mikem

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2019, 07:54:10 am »
For clarity, you suggested he attend & he suggested that he hadn't yet decided...

Offline droid

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2019, 09:06:38 am »
Must have missed that bit Mike. How ironic.  ::) :lol:

At least we avoided calling each other rude names. My medication must be working....
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2019, 09:30:21 am »
At least we avoided calling each other rude names. My medication must be working....

I'm stuck with all this bloody popcorn to shift... C'mon, this isn't how BCA discussions go...
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Offline andrewmc

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2019, 09:52:04 am »
DEFRA are the ones who make the decision about whether we can or not...

Actually no - the law is the law and DEFRA only provide an opinion on what that law means. Only a court case would provide a binding precedent one way or the other.

That said, getting DEFRA and NRW to change their opinion would be a sufficient victory.

Offline Madness

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2019, 06:19:59 pm »


I'm stuck with all this bloody popcorn to shift...

Bring it to the AGM  ;)

Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #67 on: May 11, 2019, 08:10:21 pm »
The exec has rejected my appeal to be added to the ballot because I "did not supply the required information". I did not supply the required information because I was told it would have to be on a paper form. I think I can run from the floor although the MoO seems to indicate I can't.

I am disappointed that the current secretary lied to me in this way especially if it means I cannot run.

Going back to this one.  I sympathise with Will as he was probably the most active and willing individual representative of council I've seen in my 4-5 years at BCA.  Involved with Y&D and taking on specific roles concerning under 18s access and electronic voting.  His reports were very well put together.  Putting himself forward to run again would only be good for BCA.

Having notified the secretary of his willingness to stand for the position again this would appear to be a nomination.  As he is restanding for the position his name and contact details are well known.  Misinformation or misunderstanding about the correct procedure should not stand in the way of accepting the nomination.  One could argue that this is a question of interpreting the constitution and the AGM is the final interpreter of that.  So this could be asked at the AGM itself.

A point I raised at the last council meeting has relevance here.  There is a perception within BCA that when it suits some individuals procedure and strict interpretation of the constitution or rules are used to further or delay a cause.  On other matters rules are completely ignored.  A case in point was also brought up at the last meeting.  Where all BCA sub committees are required by constitution to have terms of references to work to and these are agreed by a set procedure, except none of the sub committees had terms of reference and yet had been operating without them since the establishment of BCA.  There has been a host of similar matters so to insist on a strict interpretation of a rule or procedure against a common sense only brings again into question that perception.

Offline Jenny P

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2019, 11:03:19 am »
The problem has been, as I understand it, that a whole load of procedures were "taken over" from the days of NCA and were understood to be how BCA was to operate.  This was never clarified and, when it came down to checking, there was nothing in writing or properly recorded anywhere.  Damian and other BCA Secretaries had tried to codify this in the Manual of Operations (which is actually online) but this is a work in progress and so far doesn't cover everything.

Robin, as Acting BCA Secretary, had asked for my help in untangling this because some past NCA AGM, Council and Special Committee papers are held at the British Caving Library.  (All BCA Minutes, etc. and the Manual of Operations are online but the NCA ones are not.)  Unfortunately, when I came to search through I found that not all the NCA paperwork was at BCL and I was unable to help.  Hence Robin has been put in the difficult position of not knowing if there existed any official direction but has been trying to work on past precedence as far as he could.

One thing this does demonstrate is that it is vital to have clear, written procedures in the form of a comprehensive Manual of Operations to cover all the business which is not in the Constitution.  No Constitution can cover everything at the time it is written - for instance, we could not have foreseen the rise of internet communications which can now take the place of writing on paper - but you can't amend the Constitution every time you come across this sort of thing.  Amending the Constitution is a formal procedure and requires careful consideration of all the implications so it probably needs to be done from time to time.  However, a sensible Manual of Operation (or Standing Orders) can be kept up to date and can be consulted where there are queries about procedures.  One of the things the new Secretary will have to deal with fairly urgently is to work through the existing Manual and see where it needs amending or clarifying.  It is in no-one's interests to be falling out over matters of procedure when we should be concentrating on major issues.

Online MarkS

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2019, 11:59:31 am »
Every time I read about topics such as this I think back to an email I sent around the BCA council at the start of the year, which concluded with the paragraph below. I'm not suggesting for a moment that the BCA should take decisions that are at odds with the constitution, but when there is something apparently open to interpretation (such as Will's nomination) it seems very odd to take such a negative view.

Quote
There is clearly a perception amongst some BCA Council members (not to mention the wider membership) that constitutional matters/procedures are used selectively by some council members depending on the situation. I don't want to get drawn into how much it may be a perception and how much it may be reality, but it would seem very much in the interests of Council to avoid such a perception, regardless of how it comes about.

Offline Jenny P

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2019, 01:28:20 pm »
In the last resort, the Constitution says that the AGM is the interpreter of the Constitution.  So the simple thing to do is to bring the matter to the AGM and ask for member's views and be guided by the AGM on this.

I don't think anyone on BCA Executive is attempting to "... use the rules to exclude people ...".  It's not a conspiracy - more likely a cock-up caused by people who aren't 100% sure of their ground and are trying to play it safe.  They will be damned if they do and damned if they don't.

And yes, the various sub-committees have been operating since BCA was set up without officially accepted Terms of Reference - simply because everyone assumed they were continuing as for NCA but, when it came down to it, no-one could find the Terms of Reference for NCA committees.  So OK, the committees are now in the process of sorting this out and we have sets of Terms of Reference being proposed at the AGM so that things can be put on a more sensible footing.  Certainly the C&A Committee is currently in the process of drafting a set of Standing Orders to clarify how it is to work and I would hope that the other BCA Committees will do likewise.

We really do need to get over picking procedural nits!

Offline Madness

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2019, 07:29:18 pm »
So it's down to those attending the AGM to vote on whether Will is allowed to stand?

That's good news. The BCA need people with his sort of enthusiasm.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2019, 09:02:05 pm »
I'll be [metaphorically] sleeping under the Helwith bridge to make sure Will is allowed to stand, Billy Goats or no Billy Goats.

Seriously, does anyone know where I might go to get a bed/pitch on the AGM weekend?

Offline JoW

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2019, 09:24:32 pm »
I believe you email secretary@british-caving.org.uk if you want to reserve a bed at the YSS, though some people are staying in other huts too I hear.

Online GarDouth

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Re: BCA AGM 2019 in Horton-in-Ribblesdale
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2019, 01:19:15 pm »
Currently plenty of space at the NPC cottage :)

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