Author Topic: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)  (Read 9636 times)

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #125 on: March 05, 2019, 04:50:21 pm »
...popular with beginners... ... under the 'guidance' some sort of 'leader' or 'instructor'. What you make of that is up to you.

Offline droid

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #126 on: March 05, 2019, 05:34:42 pm »
I'm not sure there's a 'conspiracy' as such. but....

On a forum like this, you get people that have 'opinions'. And they state them, sometimes quite strongly. And get rather mardy when those 'opinions' are challenged.

There are other people that like doing that challenging and winding those people up.  ::)

What better way than to install utterly pointless aids on a relatively easy and popular choke point for beginners? 2 hours work and the forum will buzz for weeks.

Because EVERY TIME we get something like this, or even people stating unpopular opinions, there's a cavalry charge of bile and discontent. People queue up to say exactly what has already been said several times already, and getting more and more vociferous. Rather than just saying 'I agree'.

No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #127 on: March 05, 2019, 05:55:07 pm »
I'm not sure there's a 'conspiracy' as such. but....

On a forum like this, you get people that have 'opinions'. And they state them, sometimes quite strongly. And get rather mardy when those 'opinions' are challenged.

There are other people that like doing that challenging and winding those people up.  ::)

What better way than to install utterly pointless aids on a relatively easy and popular choke point for beginners? 2 hours work and the forum will buzz for weeks.

Because EVERY TIME we get something like this, or even people stating unpopular opinions, there's a cavalry charge of bile and discontent. People queue up to say exactly what has already been said several times already, and getting more and more vociferous. Rather than just saying 'I agree'.

I've been thinking on similar lines.

 :-\ - Oh, so they don't like carbon steel steps. (KMC)

I wonder what they'll think of these...  (Trident)

or how about these... :lol:   (County)

Offline Badlad

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #128 on: March 05, 2019, 06:21:46 pm »
"A cavalry charge of bile", Droid?  A bit strong and over the top to describe some fairly moderate opinions on damage to a popular route.  You seem a little disappointed that there isn't the all out war and bitching between those who used to wind each other up on this forum.  It is essential that cavers have a place to express their views on subjects that matter to them.  It is also essential that others in the caving community can hear those views - just as long as it is all done in the best possible taste...

If you want a real conspiracy theory then consider this.  I made the OP.  I have capping gear and know how to use it.  Perhaps I capped those footholds just to get cavers talking on Ukcaving.  Afterall this thread has already generated over 5000 views  :shrug: :shrug: :lol:

Offline droid

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #129 on: March 05, 2019, 06:40:02 pm »
'Bile' seemed a better description than 'aggressive outrage'

Not disappointed at all. The usual suspects turned up ( I include myself in that) and the same points were made. Repeatedly. Like every other 'discussion' we have.

And I wasn't proposing a conspiracy theory. I was proposing an entirely possible scenario. Because pisstakers LOVE a situation where they get the maximum return for minimum effort.

And I don't think you'd jeopardise your position in the caving firmament merely to generate views on here.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Jopo

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #130 on: March 06, 2019, 10:41:25 am »

The majority of comments presupposes the the perpetrator reads or even knows about this forum. Thousands of cavers don't. Someone noted that this thread has generated 5k hits. Well I have been responsible for about 10 of those just popping on to see the latest from what I see as a mere handful of contributors.

Finding out 'who' and asking for 'why' is perhaps the only option to try and understand.

Jopo

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #131 on: March 06, 2019, 10:50:46 am »
Finding out 'who' and asking for 'why' is perhaps the only option to try and understand.

Jopo

The OP met the installer and asked this very question. The reason given was for convenience on an upward through trip.
The distance between stupidity and genius is measured only by success.

Offline marysboy

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #132 on: March 10, 2019, 10:55:34 am »
Marysboy, has the installer of the stirrups given you any idea why he installed them without taking any time to establish whether the wider caving comunuity would think they were a good idea?
When i chatted with the installer, he made no mention of attempts to canvas opinion from the community prior to installation, and i didnt ask him whether he had. I cannot say that he didnt make some attempt.


Marysboy can presumably rule out your 'instructor' theory conclusively.
I do not believe this issue is related in any way to paid instructors. I think i said this already.

The majority of comments presupposes the the perpetrator reads or even knows about this forum.
I informed the installer of this thread, by email, with a link. He is very capable of contributing if he wishes.

Offline CNCC

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #133 on: March 10, 2019, 11:31:38 pm »
At the CNCC AGM yesterday the matter of the Ease Gill Trident staples was discussed, along with the damage in Wretched Rabbit. The AGM had a healthy turnout; 17 voting clubs (more than 50% of our membership) and 36 people in total, many of who contributed to a very friendly discussion.

Several people emphasised the importance of us not attributing blame or making assumptions about the person(s) responsible or their motives. The consensus was however that the CNCC should take a proactive role in these matters, evaluating each situation on a case-by-case basis.

A proposal was accepted that the CNCC should make safe the remnants of the Trident climb staples and evaluate the damage in Wretched Rabbit for the possibility of restoration.

After the meeting, a CNCC team set off across to County Pot. The remnants of the staples on the Trident climb were easily located; six in total, each protruding from the wall by 2-5cm and rather sharp where they had previously been cut off by persons unknown. An unsuspecting individual sliding down onto this climb could easily rip their suit (or worse) on these.

Using a battery powered angle grinder, the metal remnants were cut off flush at wall level and then hammered as flat as possible. They were covered with a small amount of resin. The repairs are fairly discrete, and we expect that once a few months’ worth of caver traffic has rubbed them smooth and transferred a little ‘cave filth’ onto them, they should blend in nicely to the surrounding cave wall and few people will even notice them unless specifically searching.

It is worth noting that this pitch is equipped with safe IC anchors to enable a ladder and lifeline to be placed or for a rope to be installed. Many confident and long-legged cavers will free-climb this completely. There are ample options for safe descent of this route.

The team then headed to Wretched Rabbit. The damage was quickly located; one hole has been drilled just once to cap a sizable chunk of rock (about the volume of a football) half way up the top climb just 15m inside the entrance. Another smaller chunk had been removed by means of at least three converging drilled holes three climbs lower.

In both cases the damage was to a smooth rock surface, thus exaggerating its visual impact.

The team quickly established that the lower damage was beyond repair as the removed chunk of rock was shattered completely. Some resin was used to fill in the remnant drill holes. On the upper section where the damage is more obvious and extensive, about 30 minutes was spent rounding up the fragments to assess repairing the wall with resin, but it quickly became clear that the result of this would look worse than leaving it be. A small amount of masonry work was performed to smooth off the obvious drilled hole running down the back of the foothold and make it look a little more ‘natural’ and, in time, we hope that caver traffic will smooth this off and help it blend in a little more with the surrounding smooth walls.

Note that there are safe resin bonded stainless steel anchors installed at the top of the Wretched Rabbit climbs that can be used to belay a ladder or rope for anyone unable to negotiate the climbs without equipment.

We would like to appeal to the individual(s) involved in installing these staples, capping these walls (or considering other such projects), to please consider your actions carefully, taking into account the comments expressed here on this forum and the details below.

These caves are for everyone to enjoy and share. Unilateral and irreversible action, particularly where simple or less damaging alternatives exist, risks upsetting other visitors to the caves.

Clearly modification to caves happens often; and for many different reasons. This may vary from new exploration, safety (e.g. dealing with a precarious hanging block), anchor installation (which has had its fair share of controversy over the years too). We have all ‘modified’ a cave simply in the act of passing through it. In this case however, the damage has been particularly emotive because it has occurred despite anchors already being in place (thus providing a non-damaging alternative), it was undertaken unilaterally, and is in such a popular and well-loved cave system enjoyed by hundreds of people each year.

If you are reading this and thinking of undertaking any such modifications elsewhere, we urge you to get in touch with the CNCC Officers to discuss your plans. In many cases, a solution may be possible avoiding damage, or which can be agreed by democratic consensus rather than unilateral action.

Thank you

Matt Ewles and Andrew Hinde (CNCC Secretary and CNCC Chair)
Council of Northern Caving Clubs; Working together for northern caving since 1963

Offline Goydenman

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #134 on: March 11, 2019, 12:53:51 pm »
CNCC I like your approach to this and THANKS so much for the remedial work you have done.

Offline Alex

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #135 on: March 11, 2019, 12:58:00 pm »
Wow very quick work, no sooner had the meeting completed then some off you were off underground to sort it out. Well done !
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline marysboy

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #136 on: March 12, 2019, 02:11:53 pm »
CNCC thank you.