Author Topic: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)  (Read 15703 times)

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #100 on: March 01, 2019, 01:38:54 pm »
I suspect very few cavers have done it either.

It's actually quite a popular wet weather exercise.

Offline marysboy

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #101 on: March 01, 2019, 02:06:12 pm »
When chatting to the Trident installer (who is not to my knowledge an instructor) there was no mention of instructing, training, instructed groups, novices or the like.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #102 on: March 01, 2019, 02:09:59 pm »

I think the very fact that that user group was named ...


I've looked back up this thread and can't see a named user group. Who named a 'user group' what 'user group' did they name and where?

Offline Pete K

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #103 on: March 01, 2019, 03:06:21 pm »
I've looked back up this thread and can't see a named user group. Who named a 'user group' what 'user group' did they name and where?
Both sets of steps were in easy caves less than four miles apart that are popular with instructed groups.
Semantics aside, that is pointing a finger at a user group.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #104 on: March 01, 2019, 04:15:55 pm »
I've looked back up this thread and can't see a named user group. Who named a 'user group' what 'user group' did they name and where?
Both sets of steps were in easy caves less than four miles apart that are popular with instructed groups.
Semantics aside, that is pointing a finger at a user group.

Call them groups of beginners or people who are new to caving or whatever. People who spend time up there will be familier with minibuses and bunches of teenagers traipsing over the fell. It's a cave that is often visited by a certain type of person and they won't own a copy of NFTFH. I'm just going off what I've seen with my own eyes.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #105 on: March 01, 2019, 07:26:45 pm »
instructing, training, instructed groups, novices or the like.

...all of which are cavers. There is no distinction. People caving are cavers.

Online droid

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #106 on: March 01, 2019, 07:28:50 pm »
Simon: you are faffing about. Say what you mean.

'I think that these aids were installed by Instructors/Guides to make the cave easier for their clients'.
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Offline mikem

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #107 on: March 01, 2019, 09:22:24 pm »
When chatting to the Trident installer (who is not to my knowledge an instructor) there was no mention of instructing, training, instructed groups, novices or the like.

Online droid

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #108 on: March 01, 2019, 09:26:13 pm »
I'm not trying to square a circle, Mike.... :lol:
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #109 on: March 01, 2019, 09:33:52 pm »
...to make the cave easier...

Less dangerous, perhaps.


Offline Jon

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #110 on: March 01, 2019, 09:55:05 pm »
Both sets of steps were in easy caves less than four miles apart that are popular with instructed groups.

I am told that Easegill is not open to instructed groups, the only exception being training (e.g. CIC assessments etc) for which a training permit is required.

I can't imagine any instructed group that would want to do the KMC traverse. What would be the point? I wouldn't be surprised if many/most of the instructed groups don't even do the pitch, let alone hundreds of metres of unnecessary traversing. CRO has about hundreds of metres of rope ready and bagged up for it, but what group is going to rig out 400m (or whatever it is) of traversing just to do a bit of horizontal via ferrata directly above easy walking passage? I suspect very few cavers have done it either.
I know of instructed groups that have done some or all of the KMC traverse but they were of the type that wouldn't need steps and the instructors certainly wouldn't even consider installing any.

Offline Badlad

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #111 on: March 04, 2019, 10:22:09 am »
Perhaps the worst possible to end to this sorry tale.  A photo of the sawn off stirrups from yesterday.  Now just a load of irreparable damage.  In my view you didn't need these stirrups in the first place as there are IC anchors and fixed ropes.  However one stirrup would have been helpful and not much more intrusive than many other fixed aids in our caves.  Three was a bit over kill but still better than six useless sharp studs sticking out of the scalloped wall.  Gaining a bit of consensus before placement would have certainly helped.  Maybe it was the installer himself who sawed them off because of the disapproval of his actions or maybe it was someone else making a statement, whichever there will need to be further work done to minimise the damage and at least take the sharp edges off the studs.  See lower photo.



A rip to someones suit caused by the sawn off sharp edges.


Offline mch

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #112 on: March 04, 2019, 10:55:48 am »
Christ, who would do this? It's now moved from being an eyesore to a danger!

Offline Alex

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #113 on: March 04, 2019, 11:14:41 am »
Someone should take a lump hammer in on the next trip and squash those flat against the wall, would that work?
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Online droid

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #114 on: March 04, 2019, 11:20:46 am »
Some poor bugger sat there thinking 'Can't do right for doing wrong'....
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Offline Benfool

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #115 on: March 04, 2019, 11:30:44 am »
Could it be something to do with the aggressive and accusatory nature of some of the posts on this forum?

B

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #116 on: March 04, 2019, 11:42:15 am »
Someone should take a lump hammer in on the next trip and squash those flat against the wall, would that work?

Angle grind flat with cutting disc and cover with mud/resin mix?

Best not to add further amateur work, though, and work through the CNCC for a consensus solution (who I'm sure would be happy for any volunteers).

Offline David Rose

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #117 on: March 04, 2019, 01:05:05 pm »
Marysboy, has the installer of the stirrups given you any idea why he installed them without taking any time to establish whether the wider caving comunuity would think they were a good idea?

Badlad's photos are depressing. Sheer unnecessary vandalism in one of Britain's finest and most popular caves, and now the creation of a new, serious hazard.

As for blaming this forum for the botched sawing off job: that beggars belief. I've been impressed at how mild and reasonable debate over this has been.

Offline MarkS

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #118 on: March 04, 2019, 01:19:00 pm »
One thing that puzzles me about this sort of thing is the lack of foresight from people that do it.

An individual taking a unilateral decision to install something that is clearly somewhat controversial can't really argue against someone else who disagrees with them and makes the unilateral decision to remove it.

Almost inevitably nobody wins.

:shrug:

Offline Speleotron

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #119 on: March 04, 2019, 04:43:02 pm »
One thing that puzzles me about this sort of thing is the lack of foresight from people that do it.

An individual taking a unilateral decision to install something that is clearly somewhat controversial can't really argue against someone else who disagrees with them and makes the unilateral decision to remove it.

Almost inevitably nobody wins.

:shrug:

Wait until you see what they've done to Wretched Rabbit Mark!
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #120 on: March 04, 2019, 04:48:50 pm »
One thing that puzzles me about this sort of thing is the lack of foresight from people that do it.

An individual taking a unilateral decision to install something that is clearly somewhat controversial can't really argue against someone else who disagrees with them and makes the unilateral decision to remove it.

Almost inevitably nobody wins.

:shrug:

Wait until you see what they've done to Wretched Rabbit Mark!

I hope you aren't suggesting for one minute there's any connection. Be very careful what you say. Someone will say you're pointing fingers and being agressive and accusatory.

Offline Alex

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #121 on: March 04, 2019, 04:49:20 pm »
No doubt someone will go onto the climbs and add some greece to counter it.
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline Speleotron

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2019, 11:28:43 am »
One thing that puzzles me about this sort of thing is the lack of foresight from people that do it.

An individual taking a unilateral decision to install something that is clearly somewhat controversial can't really argue against someone else who disagrees with them and makes the unilateral decision to remove it.

Almost inevitably nobody wins.

:shrug:

Wait until you see what they've done to Wretched Rabbit Mark!

I hope you aren't suggesting for one minute there's any connection. Be very careful what you say. Someone will say you're pointing fingers and being agressive and accusatory.

Fair enough, I didn't mean to suggest there was a link or not a link, 'they' being the vaguest use of the word. Can't seem to edit the post or delete it though.
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #123 on: March 05, 2019, 11:45:10 am »
One thing that puzzles me about this sort of thing is the lack of foresight from people that do it.

An individual taking a unilateral decision to install something that is clearly somewhat controversial can't really argue against someone else who disagrees with them and makes the unilateral decision to remove it.

Almost inevitably nobody wins.

:shrug:

Wait until you see what they've done to Wretched Rabbit Mark!

I hope you aren't suggesting for one minute there's any connection. Be very careful what you say. Someone will say you're pointing fingers and being agressive and accusatory.

Fair enough, I didn't mean to suggest there was a link or not a link, 'they' being the vaguest use of the word. Can't seem to edit the post or delete it though.

I understood that. There's nothing wrong with what you said. I was referring to back up the thread where I was accused of pointing the finger. There was also some mention of aggression and accusation when there was none. David Rose was right when he said that comments have been mild.

All I did was point out the obvious and irrefutable fact that both caves are very popular with beginners who are almost exclusivley under the 'guidance' some sort of 'leader' or 'instructor'. What you make of that is up to you. You can quote the access agreement if you want but what the access agreement says is one thing and what actually happens is another.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Metal steps in Trident Series (County Pot / Ease Gill)
« Reply #124 on: March 05, 2019, 12:15:18 pm »
All I did was point out the obvious and irrefutable fact that both caves are very popular with beginners who are almost exclusivley under the 'guidance' some sort of 'leader' or 'instructor'. What you make of that is up to you. You can quote the access agreement if you want but what the access agreement says is one thing and what actually happens is another.

Cavers break access agreements regularly. Professional instructors are far, far less likely to because:

a) They are limited to the sites on their list (unless they are CIC, and the current CIC membership number is running at about 140 i.e. there have been less than 150 CIC's ever and they should all know better). A CIC will not sign off an LCMLA for a cave (or provide site-specific training) they aren't allowed to take people into, which means they would be working outside of their qualification and potentially their insurance.
b) They will be required to carry out risk assessments of the sites with documentation etc - they don't just take people out for to random places - every site will have been checked before they go there, and (if required) the landowners contacted.
c) If an accident happened in a cave they weren't supposed to be in, they would find that a brown sticky material suddenly started striking rapidly rotating blades.

Show me any evidence that paid instructed groups (in the 'group' sense) have ever used a cave outside of an access agreement (e.g. a rescue callout for an instructed group in a place they weren't supposed to be).

In any event, Wretched Rabbit is probably far from an ideal commercial venue - 'long' walk to the entrance, tricky entrance climbs which would need lifelining (at which point why bother capping it) and far too many places to lose people.

The only people who will even have capping equipment will be active diggers - remember that it is pretty much the only caving activity that is NOT covered by BCA insurance...

If these were instructed groups putting in aids, then why are they all in strange places far from the 'normal' instructed group? Why in the KMC traverse (which is not exactly what you are going to lead a load of kids along) and in a cave that commercial activity is (largely) banned? Why not in the common group caves (which are also often not the caves that 'cavers' visit)?

In any event, we only know the motivations of one, possibly two of these three incidents:
1) the KMC traverse - I thought the person putting them in was doing it to help rescue (but entirely without the knowledge or approval of CRO)
2) the steps - marysboy stated the installer 'felt that they provide convenience of an upward through trip without needing to pre-rig or rely on a fixed rope.' which doesn't sound like a commercial group (who could, even if they went completely insane and decided to take a group into a cave they are banned from, just sent their instructor up first with a rope...)
3) Wretched Rabbit capping - motivation unknown

Marysboy can presumably rule out your 'instructor' theory conclusively.

This is rapidly turning into a conspiracy theory.

The Wretched Rabbit capping is, in my opinion, clearly just a misguided caver (and most likely someone who digs). Similarly for the Upper Trident steps and the KMC steps, although I would argue they are all different things in different caves and therefore no reason to assume they are the same person.

 

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