Author Topic: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019  (Read 3683 times)

Offline 2xw

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2019, 11:31:53 am »
It's not included in the report but I am informed the U16 ban is justified in advice received over the telephone during a private audience between charterhouse and the barrister, (presumably) paid for by the BCA. The results are not minuted or written down as far as I know.

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2019, 12:07:55 pm »
It's not included in the report but I am informed the U16 ban is justified in advice received over the telephone during a private audience between charterhouse and the barrister, (presumably) paid for by the BCA. The results are not minuted or written down as far as I know.

It's stuff like this that is completely unacceptable.

That would be illegal, surely, and other agencies would therefore be involved in rectifying it.

That is incredibly telling. And sad. You can't rely on everyone having the resources to sue. It's important that a governing body tries to foster an environment where people can get support and tell people what's going on.

Having slept on this, I now predict that if this ill-conceived plan comes to fruition, it will lead to the eventual demise of the BCA as a meaningful entity. Well done for forging another coffin nail.

I don't think you appreciate what 'the plan' is. There is no motion to exclude CCC ltd, there are only requests for disclosure, a stark warning that the way this issue has been handled by both sides has been highly unsatisfactory and that unless we follow disclosure the only avenue left is escalation. Obviously I disagree that this is ill conceived - we have to get to a place where we are on our members side and able to help them. Currently we're not even allowed in the same room. People will read into this report what they want to, and see a 'northern' 'interventionist' BCA interfering with local access on Mendip - it's a million miles away from that, it's local Mendip cavers trying to sort out an issue without access to all the facts, unsure of what's going on that leads to the can being kicked down the road.

I don't especially want to have my time wasted fighting with an ACB, I'd rather do the 5 other ticks. Surprisingly though I feel answerable to the membership that ask us for help.

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2019, 12:24:25 pm »
And generally in response to the accusations of bullying: stating what the BCA secretary does isn't bullying, it's a matter of record. It's certainly not hazing. I assume this ad hominem comes from the fact assertions it's unconstitutional have been demonstrated to be codswallop. And as for spitting the dummy out Droid: what we are trying to avoid is a situation like Draenen - that's what happens when you keep things secret.

Offline BradW

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2019, 12:40:13 pm »
Nearlywhite, have you met in person any of tbe CCC directors to discuss this, or do you have plans to do so? As you appear to be seriously involved, I suggest you do, and maybe find out that they are rational people with whom you can progress things. Raising the prospect of expulsion is unnecessary coercion and completely out of order and has serious ramifications for all BCA members who might have alternative ways of doing things that dont fit the BCA party line.

Offline 2xw

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2019, 07:14:31 pm »
Bradw, nearlywhite is the BCA Youth and Development officer.
He has certainly talked extensively with the people involved, who have had over two years to progress things but have chosen to fight to regress them.

I don't see discrimination as "a different way of doing things" do you? Is including all BCA members in access agreements such a radical idea?

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2019, 07:25:50 pm »
Is including all BCA members in access agreements such a radical idea?

If you're from Mendip, yeah, probably.
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Offline ObviousSpectre

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2019, 08:48:20 pm »
Access to many caves in many areas is restricted for Under 18's in one way or another. It's a right bugger as many of them are fine systems. I can't wait to finally be able to visit Peak cavern in a few months as well as Aggy. I know there's no simple solution as you can't exactly have a bunch of clueless 12 year old's wandering around in these places but in my opinion, correctly equipped and experienced parties of Under 18's should be allowed access.

Online aricooperdavis

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2019, 08:56:08 pm »
Not wanting to sound radical, but perhaps the best way to get under 18s caving in a safe/conservation-minded way is to support them, facilitate access, get them caving with established groups etc - otherwise they'll be forced to break into places and learn conservation principles the hard way?

Offline 2xw

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2019, 09:04:08 pm »
OS- Actually there are very, very few caves where access is banned for U18s, a few with restrictions (such as peak and places like upper flood, but these have the same restrictions as for adults). Most of these caves are southward (none that I know of in Yorkshire have access restrictions for U18s and very few in Derbyshire). I'm pretty sure you can go in peak by signing the same forms as the adults (will have to check) if you have an adult wiling to sign this for you - the TSG manage peak pretty well


Just so we're not sounding too negative - there are lots of ACBs that do a great job of balancing U18s access with the need to respect other restrictions (conservation, permits etc). Personally I think the DCCs handling of Alderley Edge is a shining example in this regard. I wonder how many hundreds or thousands have explored those places with the scouts, facilitated by the DCC?

Offline BradW

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2019, 09:07:49 pm »
Bradw, nearlywhite is the BCA Youth and Development officer.
He has certainly talked extensively with the people involved, who have had over two years to progress things but have chosen to fight to regress them.

I don't see discrimination as "a different way of doing things" do you? Is including all BCA members in access agreements such a radical idea?
Yes, thank you for this, but I know what Rostam is, and I know who you are, and I was rather hoping for an answer from Rostam himself. I asked if he had MET them, not SPOKEN to them. It makes a big difference! This is a crucial matter this report, and it would be good to hear from the man himself rather than the receptionist  ;)

Offline ObviousSpectre

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2019, 09:32:55 pm »
OS- Actually there are very, very few caves where access is banned for U18s, a few with restrictions (such as peak and places like upper flood, but these have the same restrictions as for adults). Most of these caves are southward (none that I know of in Yorkshire have access restrictions for U18s and very few in Derbyshire). I'm pretty sure you can go in peak by signing the same forms as the adults (will have to check) if you have an adult wiling to sign this for you - the TSG manage peak pretty well


Just so we're not sounding too negative - there are lots of ACBs that do a great job of balancing U18s access with the need to respect other restrictions (conservation, permits etc). Personally I think the DCCs handling of Alderley Edge is a shining example in this regard. I wonder how many hundreds or thousands have explored those places with the scouts, facilitated by the DCC?

I’m not referring to an out right ban on being the situation in these places, but instead a system which requires Under 18’s to have an over 18 lead them. I understand that this may sound ridiculous to some but there are plenty of Under 18’s in the sport who are capable of doing their own trips in the caves and such restrictions hinder them from broadening their caving experiences.

Offline AR

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2019, 09:39:20 pm »
I'm pretty sure you can go in peak by signing the same forms as the adults (will have to check) if you have an adult wiling to sign this for you - the TSG manage peak pretty well

The Ecton Hill mines are another place where a parent/guardian can sign the waiver form on behalf of an under 18.
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Offline ObviousSpectre

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2019, 09:40:13 pm »
Just to add to my last post. As grateful as I am for the work of the Y&D, more resources need to be available to new cavers, as so many surveys and guides are the preserve of clubs. I have this forum to thank for a lot of the info I used to help get underground at first. Furthermore, more exposure of the sport to young people, as Scout groups and Uni’s seem to be the only way that young people get into the sport nowadays.

Offline ObviousSpectre

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2019, 09:41:27 pm »
I'm pretty sure you can go in peak by signing the same forms as the adults (will have to check) if you have an adult wiling to sign this for you - the TSG manage peak pretty well

The Ecton Hill mines are another place where a parent/guardian can sign the waiver form on behalf of an under 18.

Last time I checked, a loco parentis was required for an Under 18 in Peak.

Online alastairgott

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2019, 11:55:11 pm »

Off topic- Obviousspectre… Yeh, probably. Guess we'll have to try finding another entrance to peak. Shame cavers put a fan in one of them  ;)


Under 18's can join the TSG for £2, (BCA is free).

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2019, 07:47:40 am »
...as Scout groups and Uni’s seem to be the only way that young people get into the sport nowadays.

Don't overlook the instructed caving sector which takes thousands of under 18s caving every year - unfortunately, those who find it right up their street have few options to progress to any next step because they would find too many closed doors but mercifully the Scouts and Y&D have been making major in-roads in that regard. A fundamental flaw in this country is the drinking age culture around which clubs and councils seem to revolve (where do they hold many of their meetings/AGMs for example).

Unis are for adults. Youth = under 18.

NCA/BCA could have engaged the services of licensed outdoor centres at various regional hubs to provide focused weekend-long subsidised caving experiences but it probably wouldn't have got off the ground for many reasons. Doesn't mean it can't though. Other countries do. 

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2019, 09:38:48 pm »
Bradw, nearlywhite is the BCA Youth and Development officer. Yes, thank you for this, but I know what Rostam is, and I know who you are, and I was rather hoping for an answer from Rostam himself. I asked if he had MET them, not SPOKEN to them. It makes a big difference! This is a crucial matter this report, and it would be good to hear from the man himself rather than the receptionist  ;)
You know 'what' I am? What a strange way of phrasing it Tony.

Will has been the lead on this issue and has done a tremendous job, I'm much more his secretary on this matter than the other way around. Irrespective of that I have discussed things and kept up to date with the topic so I'll keep my answer brief.

It has been made very clear on multiple occasions that we aren't welcome at CCC meetings, I offered to attend the last one in person, offered to write a statement but both were declined. They aren't open meetings and we struggle to even find out where and when they are. I have met a few of the people involved in person but not at a meeting. Hopefully this report will force that to happen.

Maybe Darkness Below could livestream the event in the name of transparency.

Offline BradW

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2019, 10:03:49 pm »
Sorry about that Rostam. I started typing 'what post he holds' but changed it and messed up my edit. Nothing personal. Thanks for the clarification as it kinda makes it clearer to me whats going on here. I can't recall ever going by the name Tony, by the way. Perhaps we should stick to whats important, dont you think? The issue at stake is access and age limits and thats what I think needs to be resolved dispassionately and respectfully.

Offline ian.p

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2019, 11:05:47 pm »
Rostam and Will you are doing an outstanding job. BCA should stand up for cavers when access bodies no longer represent them. Youth membership is a minority group in cccs member clubs this does not mean they have any less right to access and representation by the access bodies and BCA. I am a member of a ccc member club, have regularly taken youth groups into ccc caves for many years and will continue to do so I will happily put my hand up and say I do not give a toss what ccc's executive says they do not represent me and I will issue a key to leaders taking under 18s weather the executive likes it or not.

Offline ian.p

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2019, 12:03:37 pm »
This is a personal stance not that of my club

Offline BradW

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2019, 12:16:17 pm »
I am not sure you can ignore your connection to whichever club you refer to if you are issuing or using their keys on their behalf. Take care, Ian.

Offline Cavematt

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2019, 12:49:42 pm »
I echo what Ian has said; Excellent work by Rostam and Will. This kind of pro-activeness is exactly what the BCA needs at the moment  :clap2:
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2019, 05:01:25 pm »
I am not sure you can ignore your connection to whichever club you refer to if you are issuing or using their keys on their behalf. Take care, Ian.

I suspect he can do whatever the hell he feels like. I suspect he doesn't give any more of a toss about your thinly veiled threats anymore than he gives a toss about the CCC's 'ban' on under 18's.
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Offline paul

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2019, 05:14:45 pm »
Global Moderator Comment Can we please keep the discussion civil.
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Offline BradW

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2019, 05:41:19 pm »
Thank you Paul. Ian please don't feel threatened! :-)