Author Topic: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019  (Read 3681 times)

Offline Ed

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2019, 10:36:56 am »
Simple really......if the old duffers don't seem to accommodate the youth they will become irrelevant and the young guns will just do what they want and ignore the 'its my kingdom brigade'

Offline BradW

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2019, 10:37:26 am »
Some light relief, ladies and gentlemen.

http://www.danknessbelow.co.uk/


Offline suddenlywill_

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2019, 07:21:42 pm »
Not wanting to sound radical, but perhaps the best way to get under 18s caving in a safe/conservation-minded way is to support them, facilitate access, get them caving with established groups etc - otherwise they'll be forced to break into places and learn conservation principles the hard way?

Sorry for the late reply but imho, this is a main part of the issue and bears repeating; and considering what's been happening with mine entrances throughout the country, we're already seeing the consequences of this. As more and more people break into systems and then upload this to youtube for everyone to see, more and more people are going to emulate them. And once that happens locking people out of caves because of their age, for example, is just going to be seen as elitism and it will only alienate young cavers further.

Obviously I'm not suggesting we have no restrictions on access at all, but there's a stage when restricting access so people don't kill themselves or destroy the system becomes restricting access for it's own sake and then it's simply counterproductive

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2019, 08:01:45 am »
...otherwise they'll be forced to break into places

No-one is being forced to become a criminal.

...and learn conservation principles the hard way?

You mean not learn conservation principles at all, by breaking stuff presumably? Not entirely sure this logically stacks up, imo.

I'm not suggesting we have no restrictions on access at all, but there's a stage when restricting access so people don't kill themselves or destroy the system becomes restricting access for it's own sake

Pretty sure it's not restricting access for its own sake but, as you rightly point out, it's restricting access so people don't kill themselves or destroy the system. You answered your own question.

Online ObviousSpectre

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2019, 10:50:14 am »
...otherwise they'll be forced to break into places

No-one is being forced to become a criminal.

...and learn conservation principles the hard way?

You mean not learn conservation principles at all, by breaking stuff presumably? Not entirely sure this logically stacks up, imo.

I'm not suggesting we have no restrictions on access at all, but there's a stage when restricting access so people don't kill themselves or destroy the system becomes restricting access for it's own sake

Pretty sure it's not restricting access for its own sake but, as you rightly point out, it's restricting access so people don't kill themselves or destroy the system. You answered your own question.

Seems to me as though a lot of landowners would rather not bother with managing access to caves on their land and so either brick them up or make getting access such hassle than next to no one bothers. I don’t believe so many of them care for the safety of others, they just don’t want to get any bad press or be seen as responsible if anything does happen. There are ways of keeping any nosy passers by out whilst also allowing proper cavers in.

Online ObviousSpectre

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2019, 10:52:03 am »
Also, sorry about the thread hijack, that’s the last I’ll say on the matter.  :ang:

Offline 2xw

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2019, 01:26:37 pm »
The charterhouse under 18 rules have nothing to do with protecting children or protecting the caves. They are supposedly about protecting the access controlling body against hypothetical (but realistically non existent) liability.

Offline Joel Corrigan

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2019, 05:21:07 pm »
Long ago we had a callout in South Wales for a 15 year old lad who went missing down Garth Iron Mine.  He abseiled down a shaft using baler twine (complete with birth certificate edge protector) & came to rest on a ledge about 60m above a sump.  He couldn't climb back up the 15m string so we had to collect him.  We (some of the rescuers) had intended to pass on our details so that we could introduce him to the uni club but for various reasons that never happened.  What we felt at the time was that although he'd put himself & others at risk he was brimming with the spirit of adventure & we wanted to nurture rather than squash that. A decade later he got in touch saying that he'd become a caver & an outdoor instructor & that he was very grateful for the encouragement that we showed him during that wet & windy night.

The Dachstein Exped was recently approached by a 17 year old lad who wants to join us on the trip this summer & after a total of about three sentences between some of the organisers we decided to invite him along on the condition that (a), he gets insurance & (b), his family scribble something down on paper stating that they're aware that shit happens.  This whole thing about restricting kids from caving is a disgrace that should have been booted into touch years ago & I applaud those who are trying to make this happen.  Ian Pikey-Poo gets my pat on the back for discarding those absurd rules.

Offline suddenlywill_

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2019, 10:41:15 pm »


Pretty sure it's not restricting access for its own sake but, as you rightly point out, it's restricting access so people don't kill themselves or destroy the system. You answered your own question.

Without wanting to derail the thread, I'm unsure how a CCC blanket ban on under 18s can be justified in the interests of safety etc. There are 16/17 year old (and probably a few younger) cavers who are more than competent enough to go into a lot of caves in mendip and the rest of the UK, and stick to conservation rules and keep themselves safe, although granted there are also lot of people of a similar age who may not be suited to unsupervised caving. I guess the challenge for access bodies is not letting the latter get in the way of younger cavers trying to get involved in the sport, and imo, CCC haven't even made an attempt to do that.

Clearly, this all depends on where you draw the line between a justified restriction on access and an unjustifiable one, and we both have our reasons for drawing that line where we do.

Offline BradW

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2019, 11:22:58 pm »
There is no blanket ban on u18s in CCC caves. The current rules allow some access for 16 and 17 year olds. It amazes me that nobody here seems to have bothered looking at the CCC website where this can easily be seen. It was the first thing I went to check when this topic started. There are restrictions on numbers and paperwork, but no ban on u18s. If you are sincere about understanding this you should do the research. Clearly most are simply happy to accept what others post as gospel.

I would like to see better access sorted to the satisfaction of all parties including cavers, CCC, and the owners. I don't think false information peddled as fact really helps.

Offline ZombieCake

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2019, 11:29:55 pm »
There are a few absurd laws in the UK. For example, if a burglar injures themselves invading your property and smashes things up and so hurts themselves you could be liable under some some stupid duty of care legislation. 
Age is irrelevant. Brain dead fuckwits, criminals, etc. will always be prevalent regardless of age, gender, etc.
Therefore people in the line that could be sued or prosecuted will generally take the path of least resistance. So things get banned. Not rocket science. Yes, reality is some people are more responsible than others, but things go to the lowest common denominator, and so get banned on the perceptible risk level.
Waving flags or hastily scrawled protest signs won't help.  Reasoned argument might.

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2019, 12:06:37 am »
Waving flags or hastily scrawled protest signs won't help.  Reasoned argument might.
The implication being that others don't have a reasoned argument? TBF it's your paragraph that's a little hard to follow  :-\

Offline 2xw

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2019, 12:13:23 am »
There are a few absurd laws in the UK. For example, if a burglar injures themselves invading your property and smashes things up and so hurts themselves you could be liable under some some stupid duty of care legislation. 

You could, but you realistically wouldn't. This would come under the Occupiers liability act 87, and you'd only really be liable in the event of say, a boobie trap. Actually trespassers are owed very little liability (you increase liability by permitting visitors). For relevant examples regarding liability owed to U18s by landowners see Keown Vs Coventry NHS trust or Bucket v Staffordshire City Council for some case law.

Offline ZombieCake

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2019, 12:34:54 am »
I think I'll be buying a cordless angle grinder.  Can't be arsed with the BCA, CCC or other politics any more.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2019, 06:00:44 am »
Ignoring the random ranting and absurd incitements but picking up on the relevant commentary instead: yes, there will be many under 18s perfectly capable of caving where they are currently disallowed but many is not the same as all; looking at the bigger picture though I think the main restrictions on under 18s are from caving clubs and the bodies of British Caving which historically have been based on drinking age culture and an aversion to anything to do with children, hence Scouting and Outdoor Pursuits Companies have been the go-to bodies for under 18s in this country for decades - this has created its own subset of issues for ACBs because it is difficult to facilitate access for a preferred user group without appearing to discriminate against another.

BCA award-holding cave leaders and professional outfits are used to being tramrailed and extremely limited in their choice of sites for training, assessment or group trips: imagine the outcry on here and from cavers at large if they too were barred from as many caves as we are. Perhaps an argument should be made for freer access to ALL user groups leading under 18s in the nation's caves.

As an example: should there be vociferous lobbying for Outdoor Pursuits Companies to be allowed to take capable under 18s to OFD? Would this meet with approval and widespread support?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 06:36:10 am by Cap'n Chris »

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2019, 09:18:45 am »
Let my business operate more freely is a very different argument to we shouldn't discriminate against under 18s because of unsubstantiated legal concerns.

I am sympathetic to CICs as they do take a hell of a lot of young people caving - absolutely dwarfs the rest of caving. Unfortunately the reality is that not many of them will become cavers - especially relative to other user groups. Until we can better link up the commercial to the long term hobbyist there's not much hope of the wagons being hitched.

We've had discussions before on this topic Chris and Y&D are still looking at ways to increase opportunity with a couple of plans in the offing. However I'm always happy to hear other suggestions or plans. Do more isn't really that helpful.

Online alastairgott

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2019, 09:26:31 am »
I have met a scout group in Derbyshire who, due to anonymity :idea: , I have forgotten where they came from  :smartass:


But I do know that they were based somewhere below the line I draw across the country and call "south".


On the way to peak cavern with their kids (to go caving), they were saying they wish they could visit more caves on Mendip but weren't allowed. Similarly, instructors regularly visit Peak (average once a week?  :shrug: ).


Clearly this shouldn't be whitewashed over all caves in the country, as each will have their reasons, but some greater flexibility in the application of access restrictions would be great for the introduction of conservation and caving to more individuals.


There are "risks" in peak cavern, which most casual visitors ignore, but when Uni groups or instructors take new cavers down surprise view they can be lifelined down the fixed ladder. So the presence or absence of a perceived risk should not preclude visitors from being allowed to make their own decision as to whether to avoid or mitigate the risk.


It should be up to the visiting group to decide if they have the required skills to undertake the trip they intend to.

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2019, 05:14:01 pm »
there will be many under 18s perfectly capable of caving where they are currently disallowed but many is not the same as all;

The same can be said for the competence of cavers in general. Do we just ban caving because a few may have issues? Or do we just let the person/group/party involved decide their abilities for themselves, as we do with every other aspect of the hobby.

You're grasping at straws.
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Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2019, 08:18:32 pm »
The same can be said for the competence of cavers in general. Do we just ban caving because a few may have issues? Or do we just let the person/group/party involved decide their abilities for themselves, as we do with every other aspect of the hobby.

Agree. You're spot on picking up on this - once I'd posted and the time out had passed I realised that there was a phrase error namely the expression:

"...many is not the same as all..." is easily defeated and is untenable.

I should have written (but was too late to alter it):

"...many is not the same as most..." .. which makes a world of difference in the debate.

People can easily decide what trips are suitable for them by reference to guide books (cave grading) and the BCA core skills checklist for caver competencies which align to their chosen trip grade, as listed in the leadership syllabus available online.

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2019, 08:12:11 pm »
Surely what we want to do here is to encourage youngsters to join caving clubs and for clubs to welcome younger cavers.  That's where the next generation of cavers is going to come from!

We already have some extremely useful guidance from the BCA Safeguarding Officer on what is required in the way of paperwork if a club does encourage younger members - so we know it can be done legally and by the book.  It does require an older caver (parent, guardian, etc.) to take responsibility - but that's surely not a problem.  It is a real pity if outdated notions of "liability" get in the way of encouraging youngsters.

Offline Ed

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2019, 08:34:04 pm »
Nice little earner for some......ban under 18s and only allow them in official groups.....

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2019, 08:38:24 pm »
I started caving well below age 18. If anyone had told me not to go because of my age, my response would have been to go caving and regard any perceived problem as someone else's problem.

Offline ian.p

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2019, 08:14:26 pm »
Quote
I should have written (but was too late to alter it):

"...many is not the same as most..." .. which makes a world of difference in the debate.

So most groups with members under the age of 16 are also not competent?
Thats still an untenable statment based on zero evidence most of the children i have encountered underground have been in the company of their parents usualy established cavers and youth groups such as the scouts or FSC and the rest in instructed groups. I have met a far higher percentage of clueless adults underground and theyre often less sober.


Im not sure how youve ended up on the opposing side of a debate around derestricting access for under 16's im pretty sure weve had conversations about how daft these restrictions are in the past. Theres a second debate to be had around ensuring responsable comercial caving but the two should not conflict.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 08:28:33 pm by ian.p »

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2019, 08:32:32 pm »
I should have written (but was too late to alter it):

"...many is not the same as most..." .. which makes a world of difference in the debate.
.
No, it doesn't. There is no debate. Anyone not on a sodding power trip (the vast, overwhelming majority of cavers) fully understand that it's essential to bring new, enthusiastic, passionate people into caving, or caving as we know it dies a lingering death with fewer and fewer people doing it.

The only people trying to keep U18's out of caves are a small handful of power hungry saddo's who feel threatened.
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Offline Ed

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Re: Youth and Development AGM Report 2018-2019
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2019, 08:40:37 pm »
Such a difference to the way the BMC, BCU etc encourage new new blood....young and not so young