Author Topic: Caving Helmets  (Read 4931 times)

Offline PaulW

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Re: Caving Helmets
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2019, 10:32:03 pm »
I have bought a helmet as an 'ornament' before

Online Fulk

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Re: Caving Helmets
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2019, 10:34:25 pm »
The message that I'm picking up here is that it's a bad idea to use helmets beyond their 'use-by date' . . . but it's perfectly acceptable to flog them on to other people to use; or have I misunderstood something?

Online mikem

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Re: Caving Helmets
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2019, 10:36:44 pm »
The difference is, it's perfectly acceptable to take that decision about your own safety, but not about the safety of others under your care.

A helmet does not suddenly deteriorate at a certain date, but can become unsafe well before, or if looked after, can last well beyond that time.

Offline JoshW

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Re: Caving Helmets
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2019, 11:12:17 pm »
The message that I'm picking up here is that it's a bad idea to use helmets beyond their 'use-by date' . . . but it's perfectly acceptable to flog them on to other people to use; or have I misunderstood something?

As individuals caving, you need to be able to risk assess your own kit. As long as you are flogging them stating they are over ten years old etc, or not hiding the fact they’re over ten years then that’s fair. If you’re providing helmets in a commercial (or commercial-esque) sense, then you yourself need to make a risk assessment to avoid it.

Personally whilst I think risk of failure is incredibly low, the cost of replacing them is relatively smaller. As someone “working“ under the guidelines and under the insurance of an organisation (the scouts) I’m inclined to follow the rules when I can.

For personal caving balls to it, I’m gonna work on a slightly more flexible risk assessment

Online mikem

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Re: Caving Helmets
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2019, 11:36:30 pm »
14 helmets at £50 each is still £70 per year...

HSE (so AALS) advice on using helmets beyond their notional shelf life:
https://www.outdoor-learning.org/Portals/0/IOL%20Documents/AALS%20Log/1999-2000/2000%20Shelf%20life%20of%20kayak%20helmets%20.pdf?ver=2017-06-28-152932-740
Quote
Conversely, more thorough testing may be necessary if the manufacturers’ recommended life span has been exceeded. However, for many providers “their equipment is their shop window.” That is, clients and potential clients may make assumptions (albeit unjustified) about the overall level of safety of the provision based on the ‘appearance’ of the equipment.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2019, 11:58:56 pm by mikem »

Offline GT

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Re: Caving Helmets
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2019, 03:33:44 pm »
Bear in mind that relates to a paddlsport (kayak) helmet .

phizz4; in answer to your original question you should seek the advice of the Scouts technical adviser. I'm pretty sure you'll have one appointed, that's certainly the case (as far as I'm aware) for any Scouts in Wales.

That way you'll at least get a single opinion. You can sight some of the comments from this thread but really you need hard evidence to support using helmets past the 10yrs. As a tech adviser myself I'd be expecting some pretty robust measures to be in place if people wanted to use helmets beyond the 10 yr lifespan which would include a good idea of use (i.e. I could see an argument for helmets that have been stored well and only used a few times a year, but if they were out every week then it'd be hard to justify keeping them in use) and a thorough visual and function inspection by someone with a very good idea of what to look out for.

Given the increasing appreciation for plastics and landfill its certainly something I wouldn't dismiss.



14 helmets at £50 each is still £70 per year...

HSE (so AALS) advice on using helmets beyond their notional shelf life:
https://www.outdoor-learning.org/Portals/0/IOL%20Documents/AALS%20Log/1999-2000/2000%20Shelf%20life%20of%20kayak%20helmets%20.pdf?ver=2017-06-28-152932-740
Quote
Conversely, more thorough testing may be necessary if the manufacturers’ recommended life span has been exceeded. However, for many providers “their equipment is their shop window.” That is, clients and potential clients may make assumptions (albeit unjustified) about the overall level of safety of the provision based on the ‘appearance’ of the equipment.



Offline PaulW

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Re: Caving Helmets
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2019, 03:53:44 pm »
Scout Wales does have a (very good) Technical adviser.

UK TSA made the 'wise' decision to end the role of all its technical advisers, however they would seek professional advice if it was deemed necessary.

However in this case i would like to think they would give the answer to follow manufacturers lifespan guidelines

Online mikem

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Re: Caving Helmets
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2019, 05:54:16 pm »
It also depends exactly how the scouts phrase their recommendation, after all you are operating under their insurance.

Offline Hammy

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Re: Caving Helmets
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2019, 11:26:14 am »
Helmets used in a situation where the provider has responsibility for safety should be able to pass a PPE check, as detailed here

https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/News/2019-2-14/How-to-inspect-your-helmet

Unscientific ‘testing’ on a quiet day at work a few years ago



And another quiet day...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/bHe56bYPS1NKPYBk6



« Last Edit: December 24, 2019, 11:35:19 am by Hammy »

Online Roger W

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Re: Caving Helmets
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2019, 02:42:43 pm »
What can I say?  Please don't drop one of those rocks on my head, whatever sort of helmet I'm wearing!
"That, of course, is the dangerous part about caves:  you don't know how far they go back, sometimes... or what is waiting for you inside."   JRR Tolkein: "The Hobbit"

Offline royfellows

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Re: Caving Helmets
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2019, 05:10:15 pm »
and the average selling price of SH Ecrin Rocs on eBay shoots up 50%
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Online crickleymal

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Re: Caving Helmets
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2019, 08:23:05 pm »
If a rock like that fell on your head you'd probably have a broken neck.
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Offline Hammy

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Re: Caving Helmets
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2019, 07:29:00 pm »
Just to be clear, it’s not very scientific testing, but it does demonstrate the relative integrity of different plastics...

Online mikem

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Re: Caving Helmets
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2019, 08:22:43 pm »
Although the one that doesn't break will transfer more of the force to your head !

 

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