Author Topic: Should we still be caving?  (Read 2955 times)

Offline Laurie

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2020, 10:02:41 pm »
Maybe we should all give up and become hermits.
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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2020, 10:25:05 pm »
The Brittish Mountaineering Council are about to state that all climbing should be stopped. This is from a UKClimbing thread

"Very quick reply, as its getting late on sunday night and I've had hours of phone conferences with various organisations, doctors, government depts, National Parks, BBC, NHS etc.

There's been a lot of talk about justifying or validating why we can still travel and go climbing or hill-walking "safely" within our capabilities and that somehow, we can do this without affecting anyone else. or impacting spread of the virus.  The simple fact is - we can't - so please stop now!

BMC will tomorrow come out with an amended statement about getting outdoors. 

In simple terms it will be along the lines of -  Don't travel unless essential; Stay at home (home being were you normally live!); keep social distance of at least 2 meters; Exercise, but very locally to your own home only; Avoid all but essential contact with anyone. If some of this sound familiar it's because it's the same message for everyone.  Climbers are not a special case.

We will be saying avoid any activity with any risk of putting burden on medical services.   Essential travel is to buy food, for essential workers, for medical supplies. Climbing is not essential activity. (I would never in a million years think i'd ever say that).

Mtn Rescue cover in the UK will be either withdrawn totally in some areas or at best be severely and drastically reduced by tomorrow night. Many popular mtn areas will be closed down.

This shit really is getting real - I've spent over 35 years in various professional roles passionately defending the rights of the individual to go outdoors, to take risks,  to have the freedoms to do the activities we love. This time i'm saying bluntly and loudly -just don't! Stay home. Too many very experienced medical professionals I know and respect (who are also climbers) are shitting themselves. We all owe it to everyone else to everything we can to help or at least delay the spread of this disaster. Thousands of lives are at stake. Please put climbing, mountaineering and hill-walking on hold until it's safe to do so.....and i promise if I survive this thing ('cos there's no guarantee I will and many of us won't!) I'll be the first in line demanding to get better and improved access in the future..."

Elfyn Jones

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Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2020, 10:29:53 pm »
The Brittish Mountaineering Council are about to state that all climbing should be stopped. This is from a UKClimbing thread

"Very quick reply, as its getting late on sunday night and I've had hours of phone conferences with various organisations, doctors, government depts, National Parks, BBC, NHS etc.

There's been a lot of talk about justifying or validating why we can still travel and go climbing or hill-walking "safely" within our capabilities and that somehow, we can do this without affecting anyone else. or impacting spread of the virus.  The simple fact is - we can't - so please stop now!

BMC will tomorrow come out with an amended statement about getting outdoors. 

In simple terms it will be along the lines of -  Don't travel unless essential; Stay at home (home being were you normally live!); keep social distance of at least 2 meters; Exercise, but very locally to your own home only; Avoid all but essential contact with anyone. If some of this sound familiar it's because it's the same message for everyone.  Climbers are not a special case.

We will be saying avoid any activity with any risk of putting burden on medical services.   Essential travel is to buy food, for essential workers, for medical supplies. Climbing is not essential activity. (I would never in a million years think i'd ever say that).

Mtn Rescue cover in the UK will be either withdrawn totally in some areas or at best be severely and drastically reduced by tomorrow night. Many popular mtn areas will be closed down.

This shit really is getting real - I've spent over 35 years in various professional roles passionately defending the rights of the individual to go outdoors, to take risks,  to have the freedoms to do the activities we love. This time i'm saying bluntly and loudly -just don't! Stay home. Too many very experienced medical professionals I know and respect (who are also climbers) are shitting themselves. We all owe it to everyone else to everything we can to help or at least delay the spread of this disaster. Thousands of lives are at stake. Please put climbing, mountaineering and hill-walking on hold until it's safe to do so.....and i promise if I survive this thing ('cos there's no guarantee I will and many of us won't!) I'll be the first in line demanding to get better and improved access in the future..."

Elfyn Jones

BMC Access & Conservation Officer (Wales)

What thread is that from?
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
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Offline Stuart Anderson

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I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Offline HardenClimber3

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #55 on: March 22, 2020, 10:58:17 pm »
And if you read down a bit:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rocktalk/um__folks__we_need_to_talk_about_this-717331?v=1#x9155556

Just don't do it.
When trying to contain infections, it is easy to see comonsense / logical exceptions...experience has taught us that if you allow these, your control fails.... (MRSA, C diff, EBSL, CPE....)

Online Badlad

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2020, 11:15:13 pm »
The BCA did prepare an advisory statement on Friday night (I know as I helped with it).  It awaited exec approval but as the voluntary nature of these things get delayed it is probably out of date by now..  Use common sense and look to government and fully staffed similar organisations for best advice.  Its not that hard for everyone to work out the best thing to do in all given circumstances. 

Stay safe and good luck to all

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2020, 08:34:26 am »
Maybe we should all give up and become hermits.

Actually, maybe you're right.

Offline Graigwen

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2020, 08:37:42 am »
The BCA did prepare an advisory statement on Friday night (I know as I helped with it).  It awaited exec approval but as the voluntary nature of these things get delayed it is probably out of date by now.. 


That is the problem, last week the situation was changing so fast everything was almost immediately out of date. I wrote a circular for my clients on Tuesday, rewrote it twice on Wednesday but the final version was out of date within seven minutes of being distributed and the whole business was suspended by Saturday.

.

Offline kay

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2020, 09:37:10 am »

Whilst we may be able to selfishly justify continuing with our caving and other outdoor activities to ourselves, our next door neighbours are likely to think, 'if they are going out caving or motorcycling all the time then I'm off to Meadowhall shopping centre'.
Mark

I'd been naively thinking I could continue to drive up and do the amphibian survey at Ribblehead Quarry, provide I didn't stop anywhere on the way and didn't go near anyone. But now I've decided against, partly because, if pictures of elsewhere are anything to go by, there's probably already 6 camper vans parked up by the quarry, and the quarry itself will be full of dog walkers. But partly because of what Mark says about role modelling. If someone looks out at the main road and sees it full of traffic, they may feel "well everyone else is driving out to somewhere, it must be OK". I'm not going to add to that. The toads will still be there next year.

Offline adamgeens

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2020, 09:44:13 am »
Useful to hear everyone’s opinions and experiences here. As the last post said, everything is moving so fast, what was acceptable last week isn’t ok now (unless you fancy a day out in Matlock it seems!).

In terms of virus spreading a few cars driving 20 minutes to Hillocks Lane is low risk, but as was originally my concern, it’s easy to break an ankle in any cave or mine and be unable to walk. DCRO need calling, and hospital space taken up. We could also have an accident driving there.

I’ve advised the team that I’ll be staying at home instead of caving and that they should do the same.

And I’ll advise the missus later that I’ll be avoiding decorating for the same reason....

Offline ttxela2

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2020, 09:58:16 am »


And I’ll advise the missus later that I’ll be avoiding decorating for the same reason....

Yes, my view has developed and changed rapidly over the last week. Now I'm pretty much staying home and going to work with the odd walk around the block thrown in. I don't spend much time in caves anyhow but have stopped going into mines and into the hills.

I really hope this can be over quickly though, one thing I am noticing is that even though I don't get to do this sort of stuff as often as I'd like even the potential of knowing it's there as an option was quite a positive thing that I'm feeling the loss of (if that makes sense).

Online alastairgott

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2020, 10:12:33 am »
Maybe we should all give up and become hermits.


There seems to be some hermit accommodation the other side of the hill to the magpie sough tail, complete with quarried rock shelters and a mantrap further up the hill. luckily I didn't find any ready sprung mantraps, otherwise I think I may have soiled myself.


Brings another meaning to staying on the paths  :blink: least I was socially distancing myself, albeit in a place where I might have been hospitalised (or worse eaten).  :-\ 

Offline prahja

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2020, 11:09:16 am »
The simple answer to the question in the subject is “no”

The longer answer is “no - if you need cave/mountain rescue, ambulance you are unnecessarily putting others at risk. If you cave with someone, you are putting yourself and them at risk. If you crash on the way then likewise. If you need an ambulance or hospital, that could result in someone else dying. If you need an itu bed, then you will be killing someone who could be saved. The risk to yourself is small, but if everyone carried on as normal, many many people will die who dont need to. That will be your responsibility. Seriously, if it’s not essential, then dont travel, dont cave, dont climb, dont ride a bike. I have done my last outside training bike ride for the forseeable future - it’s indoor turbo from now on”

Offline ttxela2

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #64 on: March 23, 2020, 11:45:26 am »
dont ride a bike. I have done my last outside training bike ride for the forseeable future - it’s indoor turbo from now on”

Hadn't even considered riding a bike might be a risk but I see your point. Unfortunately my wife is self employed and her whole business revolves around visiting the elderly so we are down an income into the household as there is no current assistance for the self employed. As a result we are looking for cost savings and are taking our vehicles off the road and I am cycling to work as I am still needed on site every day.

Tricky stuff this, every time you think you have a solution it turns out its not a solution......

Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #65 on: March 23, 2020, 12:09:57 pm »
dont ride a bike. I have done my last outside training bike ride for the forseeable future - it’s indoor turbo from now on”

Hadn't even considered riding a bike might be a risk but I see your point. Unfortunately my wife is self employed and her whole business revolves around visiting the elderly so we are down an income into the household as there is no current assistance for the self employed. As a result we are looking for cost savings and are taking our vehicles off the road and I am cycling to work as I am still needed on site every day.

Tricky stuff this, every time you think you have a solution it turns out its not a solution......

Cycle to work is essential travel. In spite of what I wrote above about scaling back on the potentially risky stuff, money and putting food on the table trumps all else.
I've roamed and rambled and I've followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me a voice was sounding
This land was made for you and me

Online Alex

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #66 on: March 23, 2020, 12:23:28 pm »
WHO still classes riding a bike for exercise as Green in the activities list. So unless the government does what Spain says (they banned is specifically) I think bike riding along with running locally and walking is okay until the advice changes, which it just might. Remember we may be doing this for 3 months, no exercise, means very ill health and a dramatic increase in hospital emissions for that alone.

Again you got to way up what your ill health is if you are not getting enough exercise is against the risk of an accident (some of us don't have turbo trainers). Ill health can also land you in hospital which is why the gov is still saying you can exercise outside.

I guess we could make this a reality as an alternative:

https://black-mirror.fandom.com/wiki/Fifteen_Million_Merits
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 12:32:01 pm by Alex »
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline Fishes

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #67 on: March 23, 2020, 12:46:04 pm »
The BCA did prepare an advisory statement on Friday night (I know as I helped with it).  It awaited exec approval but as the voluntary nature of these things get delayed it is probably out of date by now..  Use common sense and look to government and fully staffed similar organisations for best advice.  Its not that hard for everyone to work out the best thing to do in all given circumstances. 

Stay safe and good luck to all

I thought the BCA was supposed to be a representative body for cavers rather than an organisation telling them what to do. I understand the best intentions of this but is it really appropriate?

Offline LarryFatcat

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #68 on: March 23, 2020, 12:55:25 pm »
WHO still classes riding a bike for exercise as Green in the activities list. So unless the government does what Spain says (they banned is specifically) I think bike riding along with running locally and walking is okay until the advice changes, which it just might. Remember we may be doing this for 3 months, no exercise, means very ill health and a dramatic increase in hospital emissions for that alone.

Again you got to way up what your ill health is if you are not getting enough exercise is against the risk of an accident (some of us don't have turbo trainers). Ill health can also land you in hospital which is why the gov is still saying you can exercise outside.

I guess we could make this a reality as an alternative:

https://black-mirror.fandom.com/wiki/Fifteen_Million_Merits
Scottish gov just reiterated that advice recommending a daily walk/cycle etc to maintain health and well being (obviously not for those isolating).

Online MarkS

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2020, 01:15:36 pm »
The BCA did prepare an advisory statement on Friday night (I know as I helped with it).  It awaited exec approval but as the voluntary nature of these things get delayed it is probably out of date by now..  Use common sense and look to government and fully staffed similar organisations for best advice.  Its not that hard for everyone to work out the best thing to do in all given circumstances. 

Stay safe and good luck to all

I thought the BCA was supposed to be a representative body for cavers rather than an organisation telling them what to do. I understand the best intentions of this but is it really appropriate?

I also helped with this. It was essentially a compilation of relevant advice from Government and other bodies to help people make decisions. There was nothing in it telling people what to do.

Online The Old Ruminator

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2020, 01:26:21 pm »
Most Mendip digging now suspended including Halloween Rift, Bagpit , Cutlers. The Tuesday Diggers have also stopped digging. The Management at Fairy Cave Quarry are likely to close access from tomorrow.

Offline Maj

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #71 on: March 23, 2020, 02:12:06 pm »
 
Most Mendip digging now suspended including Halloween Rift, Bagpit , Cutlers. The Tuesday Diggers have also stopped digging. ......
   
ATLAS's last digging session was Sat 14th March. 
 
Surely by now OR's post should have been able to read "All Mendip digging suspended.." ????   
 
   
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Offline prahja

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #72 on: March 23, 2020, 02:32:20 pm »
WHO still classes riding a bike for exercise as Green in the activities list. So unless the government does what Spain says (they banned is specifically) I think bike riding along with running locally and walking is okay until the advice changes, which it just might. Remember we may be doing this for 3 months, no exercise, means very ill health and a dramatic increase in hospital emissions for that alone.

Again you got to way up what your ill health is if you are not getting enough exercise is against the risk of an accident (some of us don't have turbo trainers). Ill health can also land you in hospital which is why the gov is still saying you can exercise outside.

My view is that I dont need to wait for the government to ban something before stopping it. They havent banned free climbing, caving, etc. (TBH so few people go free climbing that the impact of people stopping doing it vs stopping cycling is probably negligible).

I’m not sure I agree that "3 months, no exercise, means very ill health and a dramatic increase in hospital emissions”. But, if you are concerned about being admitted in 3 months from not exercising, then maybe go running instead?

(By the way, it’ll be nearer 12-18 months, if we’re lucky).

I also think that there will be a ban on cycling at some point - as in Andorra, France, Spain, Italy, etc. but I dont think that I need to wait for official confirmation before deciding that it is not sensible.

I think that exercise is important - agreed, but that we all should be minimising risks dramatically eg running instead of cycling or indoor cycling (Zwift, etc). Before this crisis the NHS was at capacity. Anything the population can do to reduce the use of the NHS is going to make a difference. To be blunt, it will save lives. It will be in absolute meltdown in a few weeks. I’m not sure what your situation is, but if you’ve been in a hospital or ED recently (or know doctors/nurses) then you will apreciate the absolute sense of foreboding that the epidemiological models and data are forecasting.... anything anyone can do to minimise impact will save lives.

That’s just my personal view (and experience from seeing patients, reading papers, etc as well as being an ex-road racer) and I think it is the socially responsible thing to do....

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #73 on: March 23, 2020, 02:35:49 pm »
A agree. I'm staying at home and doing lots of burpees for exercise; it's more tiring than what I was doing outdoors!
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Should we still be caving?
« Reply #74 on: March 23, 2020, 02:58:19 pm »
This winter's Malham Cove diving season was brought to a premature end a week or two ago. At that stage it was mainly out of respect for the very helpful locals, rather than over concerns about any high risk of transmission. But I'm sure we did the right thing; apparently Malham was packed this weekend just gone. If I lived there and so many folk were ignoring the government's strong advice, I know I'd be very worried.

 

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