Author Topic: Looking for a Draenen survey  (Read 4708 times)

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2020, 01:55:23 pm »
Let's be frank. This is not going to be resolved with any of the present incumbents. They will argue about this until they die.

Can we have a new group of young enthusiastic non-affiliated cavers make a new survey? At the outset agree it will be 'open source', and make the data available as it is recorded.
Multiple groups could make parts of the survey, and it can all be joined up on-line.

Chris.
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Offline Badlad

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2020, 02:15:54 pm »
Blimey O'Reily Alastair...   I just spent a long lunchtime brew (2) reading the whole link.  What can you say about this.  26 years with no resolution in sight.  Just incredible.  My sympathies to all those affected by this unfortunate episode.  Perhaps the cave is cursed after all.

Bet you're glad you asked, eh, domestos bend?  ;)

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2020, 08:11:56 pm »
Not suggesting even for a moment it's true, but we love a good conspiracy, I wouldn't be surprised if domestos bend is in fact the lovable rascal AM, stirring the pot for a little amusement, and who would blame him, there bugger all else going on...

I take no "sides", I just knew the website above existed and thought it should be posted in case people can't put the search terms (Draenan grade 5) into Google. If the 'I feel lucky' option were still available on search engines it would take you straight there...

Blimey O'Reily Alastair...   
.....Bet you're glad you asked, eh, domestos bend?  ;)

Offline 2xw

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2020, 08:42:28 pm »
There's also some excellent excerpts about the issue in the old back issues of OUCCs newslettees

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2020, 09:44:42 pm »
How many different iterations of the Grade 5 are there? I've seen the headers of the: Version 1.02, September 1996 (BCRA Conference edition), Version 1.03, September 1997 (BCRA Conference edition), and Version 1.05, April 1999 (from AM's website).

The 1999 edition must be a real gem with the luck of the draw added on the bottom of the south sheet.

There do seem to be a lot of versions for something which is contraband...

Offline Badlad

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2020, 10:26:15 pm »
Not suggesting even for a moment it's true, but we love a good conspiracy, I wouldn't be surprised if domestos bend is in fact the lovable rascal AM, stirring the pot for a little amusement, and who would blame him, there bugger all else going on...

I would doubt this very much.  I'm not saying AM wouldn't be somewhat interested or even justified in stirring the pot but I am personally convinced that domestos bend is quite innocent.

Offline 2xw

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2020, 12:01:29 am »
I've always been fond of the conspiracy that Badlad is Stuart France

Offline ogofmole

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2020, 11:01:10 am »
Let's be frank. This is not going to be resolved with any of the present incumbents. They will argue about this until they die.

Can we have a new group of young enthusiastic non-affiliated cavers make a new survey? At the outset agree it will be 'open source', and make the data available as it is recorded.
Multiple groups could make parts of the survey, and it can all be joined up on-line.

Chris.

This could be the way forward, otherwise this will run on for years. I know nothing about surveying but would be willing to help out in some way, if only carrying/holding equipment.

Offline 2xw

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2020, 01:13:11 pm »
Realistically you'd need some enthusiastic locals and it would take years to do a resurvey. I'm a thoroughly a average surveyor, when we were in the states it took 20 people 3 weeks to survey 16km. No doubt it's doable faster, but extrapolate: 20 people working full time for 4 months would finish it, it's a 70km+ cave.


Plus, you'd be repeating other people's work purely because some dodderers couldn't resolve some stupid decades old feud, AND you'd be getting involved and probably get some digger types shouting at you.

It would be a better use of time trying to bail main rising

Offline domestos bend

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2020, 02:35:09 pm »
Whilst I'm not particularly innocent I am not AM (whoever he is) , just someone trying to find out more about this impressive cave system  :)

Offline Minion

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2020, 02:52:43 pm »
Us ‘keen locals’ are also sick of the nonsense.

The best entrance into the further reaches of the cave, which would allow locals to easily survey the more ‘remote’ parts was concreted in 2019. RIP.

Offline rhychydwr1

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2020, 02:57:20 pm »
[snip]


 it's a 70km+ cave.

[snip]


If this figure is correct, then this is the longest cave in Wales.  Anybody know the length of the longest cave in England?

Offline 2xw

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2020, 06:44:48 pm »
[snip]


 it's a 70km+ cave.

[snip]


If this figure is correct, then this is the longest cave in Wales.  Anybody know the length of the longest cave in England?

Presumably Easegill which Caver Bob lists at 86.619km

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2020, 06:48:38 pm »
Realistically you'd need some enthusiastic locals and it would take years to do a resurvey. I'm a thoroughly a average surveyor, when we were in the states it took 20 people 3 weeks to survey 16km. No doubt it's doable faster, but extrapolate: 20 people working full time for 4 months would finish it, it's a 70km+ cave.


Plus, you'd be repeating other people's work purely because some dodderers couldn't resolve some stupid decades old feud, AND you'd be getting involved and probably get some digger types shouting at you.

It would be a better use of time trying to bail main rising

But you could say that a lower grade (maybe just a centreline survey) of everything is better than a super-duper grade 5 survey that might as well not exist.

With modern kit, surely a basic survey could be done much more quickly?

Chris.

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Offline Huge

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2020, 09:06:20 am »
[snip]
 it's a 70km+ cave.
[snip]
If this figure is correct, then this is the longest cave in Wales.

There is a book!! T Oldham, The Caves of Clydach. You should be able to get hold of a copy easily enough.  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Offline Huge

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2020, 09:08:20 am »
Better get a new survey sorted before all the DistoXs fail and everyone has to go back to compass, clino and tape!

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2020, 09:44:18 am »
Better get a new survey sorted before all the DistoXs fail and everyone has to go back to compass, clino and tape!
For a potential replacement to the DistoX, see https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=20342.msg322254#msg322254.

Offline Stuart France

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2020, 01:25:27 pm »
The problem is less the caving part of the job and more the drawing up part.

Can you imagine how long it takes to draw all those twiddly bits and the passage floor detail etc etc on Therion later (on a PC or equivalent)  from the basic centreline survey and splays out to the walls even done with a Disto, so say nothing about having coloured layers where the 3D nature of parts of this cave renders it unrenderable in simple 2D plan view?

I am sorry to disappoint, but I am not Domestos Bend or Badlad or AM.

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2020, 04:25:51 pm »
The problem is less the caving part of the job and more the drawing up part.
Agreed but possibly one could develop software from the 3D handling end to automatically produce plan and elevation views.  Some years ago I did manage to use a program called 3D Slicer to go from a set of 2D slices to a 3D model, see below.  Perhaps there is now software to go the other way to show all beneath a given slice.

Offline Stuart France

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2020, 09:41:36 am »
I write software for a living, well as part of my work.  One aspect of the lockdown is that it's given me the peace and quiet at home to get on with some big software projects that have been on my back burner for many years.

The problem with major software is the complexity, timescale, and cost.  Over time there is another one which is evolution.  This might be due to scope creep, fresh ideas, taking advantage of new tech, fixing design mistakes of the past, need for bigger scale, lots of reasons.

There's a couple of decades already of elapsed time and probably thousands of man-hours gone into Survex, Aven, Therion which is the main platform for cave surveying.  The program that already turns cave plans into elevations is Aven, and Therion can do that too.  We are where we are on cave software, and it won't evolve quickly from here given that the developers are highly skilled volunteers.

It's a mistake to confuse "below a certain level", in other words a Z-axis value, with a map layer.  The former is absolute separation of distance while the latter is a "logical" separation of entities.  So a slicer won't work for cave surveys as it is cutting on the basis of a "knife" moving along an axis like a ham-slicing machine in the butchers does whereas what we want is separation of one (or several) passage series from another one (or many) on the basis most likely of speleogenesis - and thus their "logical" part of the complete cave rather than as absolute coordinates.  Imagine what a slicer would do to the 3d-maze that is OFD2?   The slices would be interesting images and a technical triumph but not useful in caving terms.

In terms of the practicalities in getting the detailed quality Draenen Survey properly published (the subject of this thread), it is going to be easier but not necessarily quicker, I feel, to fix the PDCMG than develop a new cave survey software suite.  The software might take a decade or more, while the politics probably the same sort of timescale given the experience with PDCMG to date - but much less if a few fresh faces come forward to turn the page.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2020, 08:22:07 pm »
Ignoring the software, (as i'm perfectly happy with therion) I think you could actually resurvey Draenan and with a good team get it done rather swiftly [he says not giving any timescales].

And by swiftly, I think more than 36 sessions to get the standard shape of the cave down.(edit: that's 2km per session, so maybe a little high workrate).

[Theoretically!] 5 efficient teams working 7 days in a week might form the backbone of the cave in one week. but as Stuart says, Therion is a very powerful tool, so in conjunction with an online data repository that set of surveyors, or even a wider set of surveyors who wanted to muck in with the data could then munch through it afterwards tidying it up.

And by using a data repository the data is never lost, and is always live. So I could be working on one aspect of the survey while someone else is working on one of the (at least) 35 other sections. as long as you upload your changes when you've done your hour or so of work, then someone can pick straight up afterwards.

The software can even log prospective continuations (digs) and then output them in a database/table form.

On slicing, you're probably still going to need to actually survey the passage as Stuart says. Although topodroid does have a neat feature which I've not had chance to use yet, but that is a feature to ignore splays in the elevation drawing which are not within a certain range of angles.
(9 minutes and 33secs on this video  )
it is in Marco's native tongue, but the pictures are in English :)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 08:41:48 pm by alastairgott »

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2020, 08:55:52 pm »
Gah! editing my post got rid of the video!
topodroid ... a feature to ignore splays in the elevation drawing which are not within a certain range of angles.
(9 minutes and 33secs on this video  )
it is in Marco's native tongue, but the pictures are in English :)

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2020, 10:23:01 pm »
Interesting. Repositories like Git for survey data. Is there anyone doing that for a current project? Sounds ideal if you've got several teams producing the survey data.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2020, 10:29:26 pm »
The Imperial Team is using git for the Mijovek (sp) system https://github.com/tr1813/migresurvey, and Henry Bennett does as well for the Speleophilippines project https://github.com/speleo/SpeleoPhilippines

A number of British surveys are managed under the cave registry http://cave-registry.org.uk/ for example I could and indeed I have run the Nidderdale survey. (but only after a trip I did there).
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 10:52:10 pm by alastairgott »

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Looking for a Draenen survey
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2020, 11:04:21 pm »
On slicing, you're probably still going to need to actually survey the passage as Stuart says.
On a point of detail, Caveatron is used to do a 3D survey line as this is required to hang the LIDAR scan off.  Indeed for me the interest is to see if one can dispense with the LIDAR part of the kit to just make a replacement for the DistoX.

 

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