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Looking for a Draenen survey

domestos bend

New member
Hi All

I am looking for a Draenen survey to motivate me for post lockdown - I know there are some copies of the Grade 5 survey knocking around in huts etc- does anyone know where I could get one from?

Thanks 
 

Brains

Well-known member
And that is a can of worms right there!

Politics as ever will be the hurdle... The survey owners, surveyors, and PDCMG as well as Uncle Tom Cobbley and all spat the dummy over that one years ago

Prove me wrong. Please
 

Andy Farrant

Active member
There is one on the wall in the Chelsea SS hut. John Stevens is the person to ask. But good luck with that. The two main surveyors have point blank refused to publish the survey, despite many cavers giving thousands of hours of effort in helping them produce it. Hell will probably freeze over before it sees the light of day. Shame really as it is a great survey. Had they published it, they would have got due credit. Instead, they alienated a lot of people. What a waste.

The Grade 2 data is available, so that's the survey that tends to get used. It is here:
http://www.oucc.org.uk/surveys/surveys%20and%20data%20-%20draenen/draenen_survey_main.htm
 

Huge

Member
I don't know all the ins and outs but I don't think the non publication of the survey is down to John, rather his Draenen surveying partner?

Several versions of the survey, each new one with more of the cave included, were published in the 90s (I have two different versions, purchased from John at the time). I assume numbers of copies must have run into the hundreds. Maybe there are still some available somewhere?

I understand that the old paper surveys have been photographed/scanned and there are knock off digital copies around. Maybe someone will sort you out?
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Is my memory correct?  Wasn't a Draenen survey published by the dankness below and given out at Hidden Earth a few years ago?
 

PeteHall

Moderator
Part of the survey was given out at Hidden Earth. One assumes that they had/ have the whole of it.

Speaking of danknessbelow, we must surely be due some more news, doesn't seem to have been much published recently...
 

Ethel.Bangrod

New member
We were given the 1996 survey by the Charterhouse Trustees... in return for not publishing some kompromat we had on them.

We can't confirm either way... whether or not we have the post 2000 Rolex survey in a digital format... you'd have to ask our investigative journalism division.

New articles tonight... Ask and ye shall receive  :ang:

Love, Ethel
 

Dave Tyson

Member
Well I guess the solution to the problem to the lack of an accessible Draenen survey is for some kind-hearted person who has a copy to post it to wikileaks so that it is preserved in an accessible manner forever. Once stuff is on wikileaks, it's there for the duration !

Of course this would be a blatant breach of copyright, but given the importance of the system and the bone-headed attitude of some of people involved, I for one, would think this to be a minor transgression  :LOL:

Dave
 

Bob Mehew

Active member
Dave Tyson said:
Well I guess the solution to the problem to the lack of an accessible Draenen survey is for some kind-hearted person who has a copy to post it to wikileaks so that it is preserved in an accessible manner forever.
I have a recollection that the last version of the survey was individually labelled in a hidden manner so as to enable the copyright holder(s) to work out which copy had been used.  So even if the person who gave it to wikileaks did not get caught, some poor bugger might be.

The best online source I found was at http://www.cavinguk.co.uk/draenen/draenen.htm thanks to Tarquin's efforts.

You may also wish to check if you know a club in the list at http://caving-library.org.uk/catalogue/links.shtml to see if they might have a copy which they might loan you.
 

Duncan Price

Active member
Bob Mehew said:
Dave Tyson said:
Well I guess the solution to the problem to the lack of an accessible Draenen survey is for some kind-hearted person who has a copy to post it to wikileaks so that it is preserved in an accessible manner forever.
I have a recollection that the last version of the survey was individually labelled in a hidden manner so as to enable the copyright holder(s) to work out which copy had been used.  So even if the person who gave it to wikileaks did not get caught, some poor bugger might be.

The best online source I found was at http://www.cavinguk.co.uk/draenen/draenen.htm thanks to Tarquin's efforts.

You may also wish to check if you know a club in the list at http://caving-library.org.uk/catalogue/links.shtml to see if they might have a copy which they might loan you.

There is at least one deliberate error in the hard copy survey to detect copyright infringement.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
I can only assume the place is cursed, since all involved seem to be driven mad... I personally will be staying away until all involved start acting like grownups.
 

Andy Farrant

Active member
Ogof Draenen is a fantastic cave and you don't need to get embroiled in politics to enjoy it. It has some of the best formations in the country, a huge diversity of passage, and great potential for further exploration. From a geological perspective it is up there with the best in the world. All of which makes the lack of a decent publically available survey all the more depressing.
 

Fishes

New member
Surely this is one place that really does need a proper survey alongside studies on Geology and cave formation. Would it not make sense for a group of cavers from different clubs to pool resources on this project much like they do in other major cave projects around the world. There is no room for petty arguments about access control or copyright in projects like this. It is our perfect opportunity to put other disagreements aside and cooperate for the benefit of all cavers and show the landowners and others what can be achieved.

This is the perfect opportunity for cavers to be taken seriously and show something positive from the activity of cavers to conservation bodies, government and landowners alike. If we want these people to be pro caver then we need to make them pro caver.
 
Fishes,
That is logical.       
Unfortunatly with Draenen logic went out the window years ago.
Since then the situation has deteriorated!  o_O
 

Andy Farrant

Active member
Give it a few years and we'll have helmet mounted lasers scanners, and we'll be able to do a full 3D survey of the cave which will render any Grade V survey (and surveyors) obsolete...
 

Fishes

New member
Wayland Smith said:
Fishes,
That is logical.       
Unfortunatly with Draenen logic went out the window years ago.
Since then the situation has deteriorated!  o_O

The current officers at PDCMC won't last forever (even though some of the will outlast me)although I really don't know the views of the member clubs but I'm sure that many of them can't be happy with the status quo.

I can see some argument in keeping the single entrance policy to prevent the establishment of common through routes that get trashed by excessive or reckless sport caving but this could also be controlled by sensible access control to all entrances. Access through the other entrances would allow better surveying and scientific study whilst reducing damage to the cave by not requiring unnecessary travel through parts of the cave not being studied at that time. I suspect the current policy is actually less about conservation and more about perpetuating the illusion of a "wild" cave where the extremities can only be reached by "real cavers"

Unfortunately it could be a long wait.


 

Fishes

New member
Andy Farrant said:
Give it a few years and we'll have helmet mounted lasers scanners, and we'll be able to do a full 3D survey of the cave which will render any Grade V survey (and surveyors) obsolete...

Newer technologies are offering great potential for data capture but I think we are a long way from rendering cave surveys obsolete. There is much more to surveying that just data capture.
 

domestos bend

New member
Thanks all - I wasn't trying to open a can of worms honest! If anyone could somehow send me an ecopy or even a photo of one on a wall I would be very grateful.  Cheers
 
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