Author Topic: Old pics  (Read 2062 times)

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2020, 04:10:53 pm »
That GG winch gantry picture doesn't look like a CPC gantry - more like a BPC one. (This is more based on hunch than research.) If that's right, it places a maximum age on the photograph, because the first BPC winch meet was not until 1950.

The CPC was still using a timber gantry by the time of its first post war meet (1947) as seen in the many photographs of the body recovery operation of that year.

There was a BSA winch meet in June 1946 but I'm not familiar with any photographs of their gantry; however, I'd be surprised if they used scaffolding to build it, so early. They may of course have borrowed a CPC gantry, which would have been timber at that stage. There will be records of such details in existence in various club libraries of course but they'd take some accessing (especially at the moment, with the coronavirus lockdown).

I believe there was considerable co-operation between the CPC & BPC, as the latter were helped to get their first winch meet together by the former, due to the CPC's experience in setting up a winch at GG. If so, I suspect the first BPC gantry would have been timber. In which case that photo may post-date 1950.

Offline grahams

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2020, 04:14:32 pm »
The photos have been scanned at a resolution of around 3264x2448 pixels which is very large. At that resolution, the board software produces a thumbnail which can be clicked to display the original image. The originals are oriented correctly but for some reason the board software is messing up the orientation. To overcome this problem, it's best to re-size the originals to around 800 pixels in width before uploading.
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Offline Duck ditch

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2020, 04:39:10 pm »
So I think it is likely 1950 first BPC winch meet if 1949 didn’t exist.  My mother would be one year out in her memory.   They camped. 
I think you mean the bridge. Alum pot.  The helmet less person could be at the top of the greasy slab.  No helmet through lower long churn though?

I really haven’t got any more pics.  Although these two might be of interest.  Very personal as this is my mum and dad camping at gaping gill.  I’ve enclosed out of interest but don’t give much away. Right I have turned the iPad round.
 
My uncles name was Fred North.  I think the keen cousin was called Jeff North.  Look at Bown Scar Cave.  This was there initial exploration I believe during the war.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 04:47:17 pm by MarkS, Reason: images rotated »

Offline MarkS

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2020, 04:47:03 pm »
I have been through and rotated the attachments. For some of them I think the forum was not reading the metadata correctly. Others photos seemed to have been taken at a different orientation to the images themselves.

Regardless, some great images in there. Thanks for posting!

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2020, 04:57:42 pm »
These photos seem to breathe camaraderie and adventure. I'm in awe of what cavers did in that period, with the gear and clothing then available. Later generations have built on the shoulders of giants.

Completely agree David.   :thumbsup:

On a separate note,  re. the image in a different post of the big leaning slab in Alum Pot's main shaft; isn't that "The Bridge", as opposed to the "Greay Slab"?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2020, 05:05:42 pm »
You mention Bown Scar Cave; the current Northern Caves guide credits the original exploration to the "North Brothers" in 1942. The subsequent extension came in 1948 but that was by the Jack Myers era (NPC).

Offline Fulk

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2020, 05:17:32 pm »
Pitlamp: Of course you're right – it's the Bridge :-[

Offline Duck ditch

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2020, 05:54:04 pm »
I’m pretty sure that’s Jeff North and his brother. I can’t remember his name.  Possibly Fred.  But these are my dads pictures so he might have been around.
Has anyone been in Bown Scar.  I have when I heard the story of my family , early 80s.  Wet suit on it was still pretty desperately cold caving trip.  I don’t know what there bit of exploration was.  Maybe NPC know where they picked up the exploration. 

Offline grahams

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2020, 06:37:32 pm »
These photos seem to breathe camaraderie and adventure. I'm in awe of what cavers did in that period, with the gear and clothing then available. Later generations have built on the shoulders of giants.

Completely agree David.   :thumbsup:

On a separate note,  re. the image in a different post of the big leaning slab in Alum Pot's main shaft; isn't that "The Bridge", as opposed to the "Greay Slab"?

The Greasy Slab is the short pitch after the Dolly Tubs i.e. the first pitch in the open pot. Image DE1A64E7-0063-4DA2-95BC-6C2BCC7BBC56.jpg might be of that but I'm not sure.
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Offline Fulk

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2020, 07:37:06 pm »
So – here's a picture of the Dolly Tubs Pitch using a good-old-fashioned ladder. We managed to pack the damn thing into my ancient (good-old-fashioned) rucksac (but only just), and transporting it through one of the easiset caves in the Dales was something of a pain; it gave us an inkling of what the pioneers had to contend with.

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2020, 09:59:17 pm »
Very interesting survey!  South west passage.

Offline Fulk

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2020, 10:31:17 pm »
Your point being, Ian?

Offline Duck ditch

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2020, 06:55:33 am »
Most people call it sand caverns these days.  I think I called south east passage, lumbago way.
I think what’s interesting is the rough sketch of Henslers.  It looks a bit of a last minute add on.   Otherwise most other passages seem fairly accurate.  Grainger and Simpson are credited for the survey.  Is Eric Hensler the next generation. Or not part of Simpson’s team.  Or it’s just been found and Eric did a rough survey and was allowed to add it to Simpson and Graingers survey.

Offline Duck ditch

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2020, 07:03:03 am »
Looking the bedrock under the ladder of Graham’s pic of the dolly tubs, compared to my pic of the helmetless jacketed man watching someone climbing the ladder.  It looks the same to me. 
Thanks Graham’s. It looks like that’s dolly tubs.  Seems like it didn’t deserve a lifeline or helmet!
I always had that down as the top of the gully, marble steps.

Offline grahams

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2020, 07:48:31 am »
Just to clear up a bit of confusion, I think the helmetless caver is on the Greasy Slab, the short pitch *after* the Dolly Tubs.  The photo which I originally thought was the Dolly Tubs ( C41C7ED6-7F10-4C49-8A05-74F267DD361F.jpg ) is definitely the third pitch in Sell Gill as spotted by Langcliffe.
Thanks for posting those photos. They took me back to when I started in the mid 60s when we had rope ladders with corelene sides and ash rungs. For lifelines we used ulstron which I understand is finely spun polypropylene, so slippery that you couldn't tie a safe knot.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2020, 09:37:53 am »
Most people call it sand caverns these days.  I think I called south east passage, lumbago way.
I think what’s interesting is the rough sketch of Henslers.  It looks a bit of a last minute add on.   Otherwise most other passages seem fairly accurate.  Grainger and Simpson are credited for the survey.  Is Eric Hensler the next generation. Or not part of Simpson’s team.  Or it’s just been found and Eric did a rough survey and was allowed to add it to Simpson and Graingers survey.

Hensler's Passage was found on a solo trip by Eric Hensler in 1937. There's a good article in one of the original (BSA) editions of "Caves and Caving" magazine, which was published (from memory) the following year, i.e. 1938.

That survey drawing you included is a version of the original BSA survey but republished so that Hensler's Passage could be added. The Hensler's Passage survey was done mainly by Eric Hensler and Monty Grainger, who were probably the "young tigers" at the time. Monty maintained an interest in surveying in GG and was the main driving force behind the "Peveril Underground Survey Association" survey of the system done in the first half of the 1960s. The latter was (again, from memory) published with a CPC Journal in 1964, I think.

The PUSA survey of the system is magnificent; Monty had artistic skills as well as an ability to survey with precision. At least one important extension has been discovered as a result of carefully studying the detail on it for clues.

Monty lived in a large house on the outskirts of Bradwell and was what is generally regarded as a "character". As a youth I knew him in the latter stages of his life, as he used to attend GG winch meets in the 70s. I could go on but this is now off topic.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 09:59:14 am by Pitlamp »

Offline paul

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2020, 09:47:40 am »
Monty lived in a large house on the outskirts of Bradwell and was what is generally regarded as a "character". As a youth I knew him in the latter stages of his life, as he used to attend GG winch meets in the 70s. I could go on but this is now off topic.

Why not create a new topic? All this history of caving in the past is interesting to many.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2020, 09:58:00 am »
I'll tell you over a beer some time, once things get back to normal.

Offline Duck ditch

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2020, 10:39:51 am »
Don’t you think the helmetless caver is in the same place as your photo Graham’s?  So it’s the last pitch in Sell Gill then.

Interesting pitlamp. Thanks.  Look at all those going leads in the henslers series.  Very tempting. Is disapointments syphon really a syphon.  Otherwise they had it well thumbed back in 1937. 

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2020, 11:25:53 am »
Those "going leads" are pretty well mopped up now (short of doing a lot of work). Some of them are now alternative routes to Hensler's Master Cave, including Disappointment Pot, Mud Hensler's Crawl and New (or Short) Hensler's Crawl. The downstream sumps in Hensler's Master Cave are effectively bypassed by the high level route (up the iron ladder, through the Blowhole and down the Echo Rift pitch). They've been dived several times but are heavily silted.
Or, when you say the Disappointment Pot's syphon, do you mean the one before the first pitch which was first passed after a bold free dive by Bob Leakey in the 1940s? If so, that's now just a duck with a bit of airspace.

Offline grahams

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2020, 11:37:32 am »
Don’t you think the helmetless caver is in the same place as your photo Graham’s?  So it’s the last pitch in Sell Gill then.

Interesting pitlamp. Thanks.  Look at all those going leads in the henslers series.  Very tempting. Is disapointments syphon really a syphon.  Otherwise they had it well thumbed back in 1937.

Langcliffe is correct. C41C7ED6-7F10-4C49-8A05-74F267DD361F.jpg is 3rd pitch, Sell Gill.
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Offline langcliffe

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2020, 11:56:37 am »
Those "going leads" are pretty well mopped up now (short of doing a lot of work).

The one marked "Passage" in the roof of Hensler's Master Cave is still a mystery, but as you say, requires a lot of work. A mini-excavator would be useful...

Offline Duck ditch

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2020, 01:09:50 pm »
I was just thinking in the mind of a caver looking at that map pitlamp.   The disappointment duck used to vary massively between trips. 
Has anyone got any pics of the entrance to juniper, rift or nick.  Or any that might match those entrance pitches.
Thanks for all the interest in the old pics. 
The winter of 2010 was pretty cold. I went round various waterfalls that year some pretty frozen but Thornton’s force wasn’t even close. 

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2020, 01:59:29 pm »
Those "going leads" are pretty well mopped up now (short of doing a lot of work).

The one marked "Passage" in the roof of Hensler's Master Cave is still a mystery, but as you say, requires a lot of work. A mini-excavator would be useful...

Yes - bit of an enigma that one but, as you say, a dauntingly big job

Offline Robert Scott

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Re: Old pics
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2020, 03:22:54 pm »
Those "going leads" are pretty well mopped up now (short of doing a lot of work).

The one marked "Passage" in the roof of Hensler's Master Cave is still a mystery, but as you say, requires a lot of work. A mini-excavator would be useful...

Yes - bit of an enigma that one but, as you say, a dauntingly big job
Weren't EEW and JA rumoured to be in there before they got distracted by Pension Pot, but getting an understandable tale out of EEW - it's easier to nail jelly to the wall.

 

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