Poll

Under what circumstances is it OK to go caving now?

Not at all.
With members of your household and trips are well within own ability.
So long as social distancing is respected and trips are well within own ability.
So long as social distancing is respected.
Any time, anywhere.

Author Topic: Is it OK to go caving?  (Read 18522 times)

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2020, 06:29:33 pm »
The British Diving Safety Group has recommended a cautious start to diving.

" The working group has cautiously welcomed a mindful, progressive return to shore diving, because it naturally lends itself to social distancing above the surface. It is worth noting that below the surface divers routinely dive in full personal protective equipment (PPE).

The BDSG has today issued clear guidance for diving in England. When the devolved Government advice changes in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, the BDSG will also amend its advice. The Republic of Ireland resumed limited diving activities on Monday 18 May, eg recreational non-training shore diving to 12 metres. "

Hm, that's interesting. In open water diving situations, using the buddy system, is there no transmission risk from the air sharing which they're all taught to do in an out of air situation?

Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2020, 06:32:59 pm »
Who actually gives the green light to start caving again ? Would there be a differing regional response? I can hardly see the Government referring to caving directly? I cant see it being included in outdoor pursuits either as there are hardly likely to be visiting hordes.

Online Fjell

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2020, 06:44:34 pm »
/Hm, that's interesting. In open water diving situations, using the buddy system, is there no transmission risk from the air sharing which they're all taught to do in an out of air situation?
[/quote]

You would be on a doggy chance if you were left sharing one reg. And you would be really really hoping your buddy was a top bloke if you were at any depth. Speaking as someone for whom 35m is already quite deep enough thank you very much. If you have ever been on a holiday dive with someone you don’t know and can’t hold their depth you might have had such thoughts. Splendid.






Offline Benfool

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2020, 06:54:47 pm »
The British Diving Safety Group has recommended a cautious start to diving.

" The working group has cautiously welcomed a mindful, progressive return to shore diving, because it naturally lends itself to social distancing above the surface. It is worth noting that below the surface divers routinely dive in full personal protective equipment (PPE).

The BDSG has today issued clear guidance for diving in England. When the devolved Government advice changes in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, the BDSG will also amend its advice. The Republic of Ireland resumed limited diving activities on Monday 18 May, eg recreational non-training shore diving to 12 metres. "

Hm, that's interesting. In open water diving situations, using the buddy system, is there no transmission risk from the air sharing which they're all taught to do in an out of air situation?

Probability of having an out of air situation x probability that buddy has Corona virus x probability that you'll pick up Corona virus from buddy's octo x probability you'll die of Corona virus = very very very small.

You're more likely to die in a car accident on the way there.

B

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2020, 07:08:19 pm »
Thanks folks - but the last two posts don't really answer my question. I'll try and express it more simply; is it possiblyeto pass on or catch coronavirus by sharing a second stage of a regulator on a dive?

(It's a purely academic question which doesn't apply on most of my own dives, where I'd normally have a number of alternative breathing sources to turn to.)

Offline Benfool

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2020, 07:23:27 pm »
Yes of course, Corona virus is passed in droplet of saliva, so it could definitely be passed by sharing a regulator.

However water (especially salty water) is very good as killing viruses, so I suspect the chance of this happening is relatively low, more so if you don't primary donate.

B

Online Fjell

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2020, 07:27:32 pm »
Agree to swill it around in the sea for 20 sec between breaths. Should probably do it.

Offline pwhole

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2020, 10:11:53 pm »
Without wishing to sound like an endless gripe (and I'm not rich enough to be 'enjoying' the lockdown), herd immunity doesn't seem to be working out too well in Brazil (where it's hot) or Russia (where it's not), or the US (where it's both), all of which have had patchy lockdowns at best, and are all led by autocratic male plonkers with dubious personalities - I'm being kind here. At least Bolsonaro and Trump are trying to get infected, which is in their favour, rather than hiding in a cellar, but there you go. As long as they don't take their shirts off.

The best lockdowns around the world have produced the least deaths and the fastest societal 'recoveries'. They also have the most compliant (obedient?)/responsible citizens more willing to engage with the government's objectives. I'm not endorsing that, just observing it.

Judging by what happened at Weston-Super-Mare and other seaside towns this weekend, I think we need to wait and see if there are any serious effects on the Somerset figures as a result. They can't all have been visitors from afar, though I gather plenty were. But if nothing's happened in three weeks I'll feel more confident it's genuinely on the wane there. If there's a massive spike we'll have big problems, as many people will have been ignoring social distancing for three whole weeks, and so could have co-infected thousands each. I doubt we'll be worrying about caving access any longer if that happens.

Offline AR

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2020, 10:55:27 pm »
My wife's currently in hospital and after tonight's clap for carers, she heard the nurses saying they'd much rather people stuck with social distancing than clapping at their front doors once a week...
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Online PeteHall

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2020, 11:15:10 pm »
They don't seem to be doing much of either around where I live anymore. Perhaps a bit of social distancing still, but I only heard about 1 house clapping tonight while putting the kids to bed.

I think everyone is getting bored of it...
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Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2020, 11:16:50 pm »
My wife's currently in hospital and after tonight's clap for carers, she heard the nurses saying they'd much rather people stuck with social distancing than clapping at their front doors once a week...

Agree. All gone to pot round here in N Wales.

Offline pwhole

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2020, 11:38:46 pm »
The study in this report about Sweden doesn't add much reassurance to the herd immunity theory either:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/21/just-7-per-cent-of-stockholm-had-covid-19-antibodies-by-end-of-april-study-sweden-coronavirus

Online Katie

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #87 on: May 22, 2020, 07:37:50 am »
Quote
Judging by what happened at Weston-Super-Mare and other seaside towns this weekend, I think we need to wait and see if there are any serious effects on the Somerset figures as a result.

I did think the same about VE day - I wondered if the celebrations would result in an increase of confirmed cases with the next 2 weeks. However we are now 2 weeks past VE day and although we cannot tell if numbers of confirmed cases might have decreased faster with it, it does look like VE day hasn't caused a big rise in numbers.

Offline mikem

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #88 on: May 22, 2020, 07:49:26 am »
Deaths are certainly reducing at a fairly steady rate.

Back on the subject of regs - choice of maybe catching covid, or definitely drowning - hmm... (although as mentioned by others there are several mitigations against ever getting into this situation)

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #89 on: May 22, 2020, 09:22:19 am »
So - what have we learned about "not getting into this situation"?
It seems to me there are two obvious things divers could do:

1. Dive in the sea rather than at freshwater locations and / or,

2. Don't dive without your own separate air source, instead of relying on the buddy system of sharing.

There are other potential issues with the buddy system, for example the buddy check before going in the water. (Just to explain for non divers; this involves pawing through your buddy's gear to familiarise yourself exactly how it's configured, so you can intervene quickly underwater if needed in an emergency.) Suppose the dive then doesn't go ahead for some reason; the equipment may then be contaminated. All the above suggests that the "solo ethic" advocated by British cave divers (which encourages total self reliance using back up systems) has more to be said for it even than normal.

Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #90 on: May 22, 2020, 09:59:48 am »
No self-respecting diver should ever go diving without a separate air supply. When diving over 25 years I have had most types of scenarios.

Here is one.
My HP hose burst at the junction with the 1st stage.  Apart from nearly blowing my head off all my air was gone within minutes.

I can think of others. Anyway air sharing rarely works in a stressful situation particularly when the other party has no buoyancy.  Another time my pressure guage was sticking at 50 bar so giving a false reading even when the tank was empty.

Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2020, 10:18:10 am »
Anyway back on topic.

You would not mind if all scientists agreed.

"  A leading scientist has called for lockdown rules to be loosened more quickly, saying the coronavirus pandemic has already infected half of Britain’s population and is “on its way out”.

Prominent Oxford epidemiologist Professor Sunetra Gupta told unherd.com that the UK had based its handling of the crisis on the worst-case scenario and called for a ‘more rapid exit from lockdown’.

Prof Gupta also argued that there is a “strong possibility” that the UK could return to normal, including pubs, nightclubs and restaurants reopening, without great risk. "

Offline Speleotron

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2020, 10:25:14 am »



"  A leading scientist has called for lockdown rules to be loosened more quickly, saying the coronavirus pandemic has already infected half of Britain’s population and is “on its way out”.


We'll see when we have antibody testing. What will people have left to speculate about once this is answered once and for all?
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Offline mikem

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #93 on: May 22, 2020, 10:27:16 am »
It's much easier making predictions after the fact!

Plenty of undiscovered cave passage to pontificate about...

Online PeteHall

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #94 on: May 22, 2020, 10:29:36 am »
We'll see when we have antibody testing. What will people have left to speculate about once this is answered once and for all?

Did you read the article David Rose linked earlier? I'm no medical expert, but the claims of that particular expert are that antibody testing doesn't tell you much:

Quote
As she sees it, the antibody studies, although useful, do not indicate the true level of exposure or level of immunity. First, many of the antibody tests are “extremely unreliable” and rely on hard-to-achieve representative groups. But more important, many people who have been exposed to the virus will have other kinds of immunity that don’t show up on antibody tests — either for genetic reasons or the result of pre-existing immunities to related coronaviruses such as the common cold.
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Offline Speleotron

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2020, 10:43:05 am »
The Roche test is 100 % accurate apparently. And its now confirmed that people testing positive for Covid a few weeks after recovering from it aren't being re-infected or having a dormant virus re-emerge its just harmless viral RNA fragments still hanging around and setting off the test.
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Offline mikem

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2020, 10:45:19 am »
100% accuracy is impossible to prove...

Offline MarkS

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Offline Speleotron

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #98 on: May 22, 2020, 10:54:15 am »
OK how about 'as close to 100 % as the precision of the experiment could allow'. Anyway it's supposedly a very good test and it should be a game-changer. Better than being in the dark like we are now.
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Offline mikem

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Re: Is it OK to go caving?
« Reply #99 on: May 22, 2020, 11:37:48 am »
Presumably they are testing samples that have been stored since before the outbreak, but have they been testing those known to have similar antibodies?

Also the test has been at least 14 days after infection, so it's possible to become infected before you get negative results back.

It is a step in the right direction, but not a Panacea.

 

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