Author Topic: Trespass (Read 7938 times)

Badlad · « **on:** July 16, 2020, 11:08:53 am »

The government manifesto stated it wanted to introduce a law to make trespass a criminal offence. The law is to be aimed at travellers but the Ramblers, BMC and many other outdoor groups are very concerned with the implications of such a law and are fighting against it. Both the CNCC and BCA C&A officer responded to the government consultation highlighting concerns on how it might effect other users of the outdoors.

There is a petition at https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139 if anyone wishes to sign it.

That petition states, "The Government's manifesto stated “we will make intentional trespass a criminal offence”: an extreme, illiberal & unnecessary attack on ancient freedoms that would threaten walkers, campers, and the wider public. It would further tilt the law in favour of the landowning 1% who own half the country."

andrewmc · « **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2020, 11:14:46 am »

If trespass is criminalised, most trips down Swildon's will be illegal, unless you are going to knock on half the doors in Priddy asking for permission for the bit of cave they own, since ownership extends, by case law (Bocardo SA v Star Energy UK Onshore Ltd) deep below the surface...

ChrisJC · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2020, 09:43:18 pm »

'Trespass with a motor vehicle' is already a criminal offence, and Travellers do it all the time. Never used as a lever though to 'move them on'.

So I doubt if this will make any difference.

Chris.

RobinGriffiths · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2020, 10:22:56 pm »

There's already aggravated trespass which is a criminal offence. If there's a specific 'use case' they are after with this act, why not just bring that under aggravated trespass and let the rest of us wander around with the benefit of the ancient freedoms bestowed by our ancestors?

Joe Duxbury · « **Reply #4 on:** August 29, 2020, 04:35:44 pm »

If trespass is to become 'more' criminalised, I wonder if the chain of shops that goes by the name 'Trespass' will change. It always amused me that they would use such a title. Can you imagine a shop called 'Drunk Driving', or 'Grievous Bodily Harm'?

mikem · « **Reply #5 on:** August 29, 2020, 04:52:07 pm »

Apparently they started out supplying the local police (the current brand being created in 1984):
https://www.trespass.com/our-story

ZombieCake · « **Reply #6 on:** August 29, 2020, 06:32:42 pm »

Plenty of existing laws and provisions to move travellers on, and are not used as much as perhaps they should be. So a new law won’t make a blind bit of difference and will likely be used to further curtail current freedoms for law abiding citizens.

pwhole · « **Reply #7 on:** August 31, 2020, 02:00:21 pm »

Quote from: Joe Duxbury on August 29, 2020, 04:35:44 pm

If trespass is to become 'more' criminalised, I wonder if the chain of shops that goes by the name 'Trespass' will change. It always amused me that they would use such a title. Can you imagine a shop called 'Drunk Driving', or 'Grievous Bodily Harm'?

There's still a band

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBH_(band)

RB · « **Reply #8 on:** September 01, 2020, 02:32:27 pm »

I'm not a frequent poster here but there is now a fascinating new book just come out on trespass which I've just started reading. Goes into the history of the land and some great insights into how much of our outdoor space is closed off.

I'd certainly recommend it to anyone with an interest in the whole trespass and access debate. Certainly got me thinking about the whys and wherefores of cavers having to ask permission from landowners in the first place...

Its called the Book of Trespass by Nick Hayes...https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-book-of-trespass/nick-hayes/9781526604699

Cheers...

Jenny P · « **Reply #9 on:** September 01, 2020, 06:15:03 pm »

I note it's being plugged in the Guardian (of course!) so you can get it cheaper from the Guardian Bookshop. Sounds like being well worth reading.

SamT · « **Reply #10 on:** September 02, 2020, 11:36:35 am »

Recently bought this for my dad for his Birthday. Looks good.

He's an avid proponent of trespass, loves all the Kinder Mass Trespass stuff, and I remember going to Hayfield as a child and walking up to the downfall with Benny Rothman et al (must have been one of the more notable anniversary events).

mikem · « **Reply #11 on:** September 02, 2020, 12:39:57 pm »

He was at the 50th, in 1982, & passed away shortly before the 70th (2002):
http://kindertrespass.org.uk/anniversary-and-celebrations/

SamT · « **Reply #12 on:** September 02, 2020, 01:00:48 pm »

82 sounds about right - I'd have been 10.

nearlywhite · « **Reply #13 on:** September 02, 2020, 01:18:15 pm »

Quote from: Joe Duxbury on August 29, 2020, 04:35:44 pm

If trespass is to become 'more' criminalised, I wonder if the chain of shops that goes by the name 'Trespass' will change. It always amused me that they would use such a title. Can you imagine a shop called 'Drunk Driving', or 'Grievous Bodily Harm'?

Reckon they'd be an adult dodgems and a tatoo parlor so yes

mikem · « **Reply #14 on:** September 02, 2020, 02:30:53 pm »

Pretty much correct about latter:
https://www.bigreddirectory.com/gbh-body-piercing-studio-saint-austell

Jenny P · « **Reply #15 on:** December 21, 2020, 05:39:53 pm »

Update on the situation.

“Don’t criminalise trespass”:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139

MPs on the Petitions Committee have scheduled this petition for debate on Monday 25 January. The debate will be led by Committee member Katherine Fletcher MP, and a Minister from the Home Office will respond for the Government.

Watch live from 4.30pm on Mon 25 Jan:
Read the transcript (published shortly after the debate ends): https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2021-01-25

badger · « **Reply #16 on:** December 21, 2020, 06:32:04 pm »

you would think with the current situation and brexit the government have far more important matters to get sorted, and the last time the gov, went in with a 1/2 arsed idea cause it said it the manifesto we ended up with brexit, you would have thought they might have learnt.

Badlad · « **Reply #17 on:** December 21, 2020, 10:27:56 pm »

I expect this is seen as a great idea by the Tory chumocracy.

Kevlar · « **Reply #18 on:** January 25, 2021, 07:56:27 pm »

Quote from: RB on September 01, 2020, 02:32:27 pm

I'm not a frequent poster here but there is now a fascinating new book just come out on trespass which I've just started reading. Goes into the history of the land and some great insights into how much of our outdoor space is closed off.

I'd certainly recommend it to anyone with an interest in the whole trespass and access debate. Certainly got me thinking about the whys and wherefores of cavers having to ask permission from landowners in the first place...

Its called the Book of Trespass by Nick Hayes...https://www.waterstones.com/book/the-book-of-trespass/nick-hayes/9781526604699

Cheers...

After reading about it on here we got the book and thought it was great. Nick Hayes is now doing various podcasts and interviews promoting his campaign with different groups of outdoor enthusiasts and found the recent one with SOUP (Sheffield OUtdoor Plungers) really interesting, especially the quetsions towards the end. I really hope those involved in the CROW discussions have already approached this guy, it would be really interesting to see a similar BCA video discussing cave access with him.

Badlad · « **Reply #19 on:** January 25, 2021, 08:08:00 pm »

I ordered it too. Fascinating read. Nick Hayes was interviewed at the Kendal Mountain literary festival - also good. Once you have a reasonable understanding of trespass, land acquisition and the broad points Nick guides you to then the whole CRoW issue becomes much more supportable. It certainly encouraged me to give up my time to campaign on behalf of British Caving. Now it's over to Dave Rose and hopefully he'll read your suggestion.

mikem · « **Reply #20 on:** January 25, 2021, 08:42:28 pm »

The talk was hosted by the Sheffield adventure film festival & they have a couple more that may be of interest (plus links to buy the book from independent bookstore): https://shaff.co.uk/

mrodoc · « **Reply #21 on:** January 26, 2021, 05:04:44 pm »

We might grumble about access but in Eire all land is private. You should see how small the walking guides are - there are virtually no public rights of way. Luckily most but not all landowners are happy to let cavers go onto their land.

mikem · « **Reply #22 on:** January 26, 2021, 05:50:24 pm »

Most of our rights of way are just the routes locals took to visit their neighbours, work or church.

al · « **Reply #23 on:** January 26, 2021, 11:07:16 pm »

Not entirely off-topic, but, if you ever get a chance to see "the Cheviot, the Stag and the Black, Black Oil", a play by John McGrath, take it. It's not so much about trespass, more about land ownership and its history north of the border.

But it's not solely historic. I first saw the play enacted by the 7:80 Theatre Company in Preston in the early 70s and found it fascinating and very moving and, the year before last, I went to see its latest incarnation revived by the National Theatre of Scotland (in association with Dundee Rep and Live Theatre, Newcastle) when I was having a break on Orkney, and it has been brought up-to-date, incorporating some much more recent inroads into our freedoms.

It is funny, musical and there is much audience participation ... but I defy you to come away from it unaffected by the message it brings.

EDIT: Sorry - I should really have put this post in the land management thread!!

NeilC · « **Reply #24 on:** January 27, 2021, 08:32:03 am »

Quote from: mikem on January 26, 2021, 05:50:24 pm

Most of our rights of way are just the routes locals took to visit their neighbours, work or church.

That reminds me of something that's always puzzled me - as almost all rights of way have come about simply because they were the routes that people used to get about, most people having no means of transport other than by foot until comparatively recently, why are there so few of them in Scotland and Ireland? Presumably people there needed to walk about just as much as English people did? And given the more dispersed settlement patterns, I'd have expected more paths rather than fewer.