Author Topic: Rule of Six  (Read 3088 times)

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Rule of Six
« on: September 14, 2020, 07:09:29 pm »
... so that's the death knell for caving clubs, I guess.

Offline crickleymal

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2020, 12:37:57 pm »
No. Sports are allowed to continue.  Besides it's ok to break the law in a specific and limited way. The government have said so.
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Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2020, 02:52:39 pm »
I am looking into it and so far have found: Reg 5 (1)  "During the emergency period, no person may participate in a gathering which consists of more than six people unless ... paragraph (3) applies".  Para 3 at (c) includes "the gathering is reasonably necessary ... (ii) for the purposes of education or training..." and at (j) "the gathering is a sports gathering and the person concerned is taking part in that gathering...".  A sports gathering is defined in Para 5D as a “sports gathering” is a gathering which is organised for the purposes for allowing persons who are not elite sportspersons to take part in any sport or other fitness related activity..." and goes onto lay down some conditions.

So training and sport gatherings can take place with more than 6 persons.  I am currently trying to identify what those conditions are (mostly Reg 5(5G)) and will submit my findings to BCA for publication in the next week or so.

I will add that I think businesses taking people caving are covered by other parts of the regulation [Reg 5(3)(c)(i)].  But understanding that is a lower priority.   

Online Ed

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2020, 03:19:15 pm »
there are also no limits on the number of groups of six or fewer at a venue - as long as social distancing is followed.

So a family / bubble of upto six in one dormitory, similar in another etc..

Then just not in communal areas at the same time - unless more than 2m distancing can be maintained.


Offline mikem

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2020, 03:24:34 pm »
Caving is one of the activities allowed to exceed the number (link just takes you to BCA website):
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2020, 03:36:37 pm »
Bloody hell, I never expected the government web site to list BCA's advice.  :o

Offline Badlad

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2020, 04:29:38 pm »
I think that over the years the CroW campaign has drawn attention to caving in gov/defra/NE circles and that is why it is now listed.

Offline alastairgott

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2020, 08:10:37 pm »
Or the BEC have managed to get a sticker in the Bogs in Government.

Offline braveduck

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2020, 08:51:25 pm »
I believe Shooting Parties are exempt ! >:(

Offline prahja

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2020, 09:27:36 pm »
So confusing !!

I could go shooting with 100 others (if I was a murderer), I could play cricket with 21 others, play football with 21 others+referee etc, play polo, go caving etc with 20+ people but not go cycling on an organised club run with five others in England !!! (See cycling UK and British Cycling advice !!!) But I could ride five miles across to Wales and then we could all meet up to ride together until we head back to England....

This is just b*llocks !

Offline ZombieCake

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2020, 10:17:07 pm »
And don't forget the Home Secretary said if two groups known to each other passed each other in the street and spoke that amounted to more than six people that would count as 'mingling' and so be illegal.  Presumably the Covid Nazis the government is recruiting would then be allowed to shoot you.  I can see the scenario now:
"Oh hello Fred, fancy bumping into you. Where are you lot going today?  We're off to Goatchurch."
"Hi, Janet, just a quick bimble down Swildons to Sump1 and back."
"Achtung, papers!!"

The whole thing is a utter farce.
Given all the money being made from vested interests can't see this ending anytime soon.
3,000 cases (by cases I guess they mean positive tests, and the tests seem variable in quality for both positive and negative results) a day in a population of 66million plus is a rate of about 0.004 percent.  Then given that the vast majority don't go on to present any real problems the unfortunately bad cases are much lower.  If it's endemic and most people have in reality been exposed since 2019 then what?
Meanwhile 695,000 more people are unemployed as a result, and who knows what sort of bow wave of other problems are building up. 

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2020, 11:03:47 pm »
I am still trying to disentangle the governmemt advice as it refers to Club Huts and note the advice from BMC, which refers to the government advice:

HMG Advice on the use of “Hostels” as it affects club huts

The current recommendation is still:

Closing other shared facilities:

– communal kitchens, where guests prepare their own food

– other communal areas (e.g. TV rooms) where social distancing can’t be managed within current government guidelines.


This is the advice on the government website for the use of “hostels”, i.e. bunkhouses, privately owned hostels (such as Club Huts), etc.

There is also advice on the use of toilets, showers, etc. being allocated to one group only if groups are sharing the accommodation.  So if more than one group is present, each separate group must have their own toilet/washroom/shower allocated to them - there must be no sharing of these facilities between groups.

This is from the detailed BMC Guidelines on re-opening Club Huts which links to the government website giving advice on “accommodation”.

How this can be managed depends on the layout of the facilities at the Hut, so it may be possible to have more than one group in at a time but most Club Huts only have one kitchen.  So you can allow your own members to stay if they are pre-booked and there are not more than 6 in the group and provided that there are suitable sanitizing and disinfectant supplies available.  Most clubs can't afford to bring in professional cleaning services so have to rely on their members to clean properly after their stay but if they also allow 72 hours between bookings this seems to work OK.

The rules keep changing and it's very difficult to keep up, plus the risk of a regional lock-down now looms, but we do want to get our Club Huts open as much as we can so that people who don't live in a caving area at least have a chance to go caving in a small group.  It would be good if we had some definitive advice on allowing visitors to use the Club Hut as well.

Offline mikem

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2020, 11:06:54 pm »
I believe Shooting Parties are exempt ! >:(
No more than most other sports, just been singled out in various newspaper reports.

Online pwhole

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2020, 11:26:00 pm »
I think unless a club hut is the size and layout of a small hotel, expecting more than one group of six to be able to share all the facilities, whilst maintaining social distancing between all members of all separate groups of six at all times is a mathematical problem only a supercomputer could solve. And that's without anyone drinking beer, which would probably cripple even a supercomputer's capabilities. I think one group of six in most huts in most contexts will be the maximum practical number.

But our hut has a lot of short visits by members just popping in to 'do something' - like paint a wall, or wash some ropes or whatever. That would suddenly get rather difficult if there were a group of six booked in already and they needed to use the same facilities. I'm finding that despite best intentions, many people are really not very good at social distancing. That's entirely normal, and I'm not blaming anyone, but it's almost certainly why the numbers are going up again. I've stopped going into my local supermarket because of their total refusal to enforce mask-wearing due to misplaced machismo, so hardly anyone does wear one in there now. It's a Covid Spreading Centre.

Online RobinGriffiths

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2020, 11:30:41 pm »
I've stopped going into my local supermarket because of their total refusal to enforce mask-wearing due to misplaced machismo, so hardly anyone does wear one in there now. It's a Covid Spreading Centre.

That's interesting. Face masks only came in in Wales on Monday, and I've yet to see anyone in a store/garage/ etc. not wearing them. Even staff (altough not in supermarkets), and I thought it was optional for them. Maybe it'll all fall apart in a few weeks.

Offline mikem

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2020, 11:33:55 pm »
Very much depends where you are - inner cities in North are not very compliant at all (hence the rise in cases)

Offline ZombieCake

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2020, 12:56:53 am »
I guess you shouldn't look back in anger at people's views  https://uk.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-noel-gallagher-refuses-wear-171600146.html

Thinking about it I haven't been to the local town centre since early March. I've a medical exemption due to the drugs I take for respiratory issues (tried a mask few times and it was kinda bad), and it has generally not been much of a problem, a couple of places ask about it but show them the form and they're OK, most don't bother though, and I haven't been shot by the Nazis yet.
Btw I don't go out much anyway, 'cos I'm miserable, and also have been working from home for ages and no longer use public transport.

Online RobinGriffiths

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2020, 01:51:20 am »
I think Bozzo doesn't give a f@ck, but Ms Patel seems to be well up for a bit of getting the populace 'at heel'.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2020, 06:23:13 am »
Lots of replies!! Re clubs and Rule of six, I was thinking more in terms of members' weekends, Christmas meals etc., the kinds of event where many people normally socialise, the latter reason being a major draw why people join a club at all.

I suspect the RoS could negatively impact re-upping for 2021.

Offline A_Northerner

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2020, 10:58:24 am »
Very much depends where you are - inner cities in North are not very compliant at all (hence the rise in cases)

The whole country got locked down to save London and now those living in the North are exhausted by restrictions put into place before they'd even seen significant cases.

Now the cases are rising there they're getting singled out for lockdowns but it isn't enforced as much as the Nation-wide one so people are more open to breaking the rules.

It was always going to be inevitable with such a blinkered, blunt-force London-centric approach to lockdown.
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Offline mikem

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2020, 11:23:42 am »
Highest percentage of deaths have been in North West, then North East & West Midlands, all higher than London, but East of England & Yorkshire and the Humber aren't far behind. Then East Midlands, South East, Wales, Scotland, South West & Northern Ireland being lowest.

Go to bottom table & click on region:
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/deaths
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 11:45:26 am by mikem »

Offline Laurie

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2020, 12:39:16 pm »
If there's more than six in a shooting party it's easy to reduce the number.
Allowing thirty is obviously for humanitarian reasons only.
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Online pwhole

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2020, 11:22:37 pm »
The whole country got locked down to save London and now those living in the North are exhausted by restrictions put into place before they'd even seen significant cases.

I was working in London from the 22nd Feb until the official 'lockdown' on 23rd March, but in reality it had been locked down for two weeks before that - I had a memorable drink date on March 9th with an old friend on The Strand, and we were the only ones there. Piccadilly Circus was also empty. Three people in a tube carriage at rush hour, etc. We went back in July for another three weeks, and although the suburbs were busier, the centre was still very quiet and the City was deserted - like  Sunday every day. I think London being what it is, everyone realised the seriousness of the situation and just did it themselves, rather than being made to. They now have some of the lowest rates in Britain but a lot of that is social distancing. A lot work from home, but I would imagine most don't, so there must be something else going on.

I'm not sure if the measures nationwide have been specifically tailored to protect London though, and although I'm bored a lot by the lack of activity, I'm not exactly exhausted by the restrictions - they seem quite light for a national emergency, but I don't have a family and live on my own, so I guess I have less risk on a daily basis - I am currently working with two guys who have partners and kids though, and having to share a van. I don't really get the idea that wearing a mask is an infringement of my liberty though - I quite like it. With shades and my hat on I'm pretty much The Invisible Man.

It also depends where you are as to what people do. My street is 'cosmopolitan', let's call it, and about half of the local population are not wearing masks in shops, by my count, and are very slack generally on social distancing. If I walk half a mile to a 'posher' area, people have crossed the road to avoid walking even 4m away from me, the pavements are so wide - and I'm presentable. Yesterday in the local pharmacy two people walked in without masks, and the sweet old lady behind the counter immediately demanded they wear one, and if they didn't have one they had to buy one now - 50p please. They both bought one immediately and put them on. Now if she can do it, but some big tough guy in a supermarket is too 'afraid' to challenge his customers to wear one, even though the checkout signs state they will not be served without a mask, then I'm afraid we're in bullshit world again. They're just stupid, anti-social and greedy, basically. They won't lose any money, which is mostly what they care about.

Offline Alex

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2020, 10:11:24 am »
Is London low infection rates partly due to the fact they got hit real bad in the first wave with way above national average of infections up to 20%. So with that level of immunity, it could reducing the speed of new infections.

North west for example in the first wave had one of the lowest infection rates, so it makes sense they are getting more now as there are more to infect?

P.s. I would rather take on the tough guy then the sweat (not so when angry) old lady, she has the power of shame!
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Online Ed

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Re: Rule of Six
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2020, 10:29:07 am »
London's low rate ( even the initial wasn't as bad as could of been) is because being metropolitan the residents saw what happened to family and friends overseas / international press and took preemptive action to a greater degree.
    And as much as I hate to say it London is much more free thinking / aware the the North these days. Similar with much of Scotland

They didn't wait to be told what to do then ignore it in a stupid willy waving stance like has happened in northern post industrial town.
   The number of people in Bradford - for instance- that are ignoring basic advice is ridiculous. Thats even before you factor in the significant health issues for a population of its size.

 

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