Author Topic: Trespass  (Read 3355 times)

Offline droid

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2020, 09:50:13 pm »
I agree with Chris.

I've heard of coal waste heaps progressing to near climax woodland within about 40 years. And there was/is a patch of moorland opposite Lawrencefield Estate near Hathersage that's gone the same way once the sheep were kicked off it.
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Offline tamarmole

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2020, 10:43:37 pm »
They're likely to end up as huge sources of carbon to the fluvial system and the atmosphere and huge risks for wildfire.

Leaving them is similar to leaving toxic waste instead of clearing it up. In my professional opinion many of them are beyond the point of being able to repair themselves

I'm going to play devils advocate here because I don't believe you.

Pretty much all the places I have ever seen that have been abandoned have seen a remarkable takeover by nature in very short order! The only place I can think of that has defied nature is Parys Mountain on Anglesey, and that is a whole lot different.

Surely the heather would grow until it is outcompeted by taller species etc, until it's forested again?

Is there an example of such a landscape being abandoned and it not recovering of its own accord?

Chris.


I agree with Chris.  In my neck of the woods we had  several of the world's largest arsenic producer's which are happily being reclaimed by nature.

Offline mikem

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2020, 11:03:37 pm »
Yes, the woodland will take over, but that's not the habitat that is required by hen harrier & merlin, and it's not as effective a carbon store as peat bog.

Offline Kenilworth

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2020, 12:14:07 am »
Droid again drags out his "wasteland to climax" line. It's complete nonsense, beside the fact that the concept of "climax" ecosystems is mostly useless.

The succession of forest species is astoundingly complex and relatively swift, but it cannot be accomplished to anything near completion in the span of a single human life. This is especially true when topsoil has been eroded, removed, or depleted.

From an ecological standpoint, the most efficient way to "reclaim" a forest is to leave it alone. It works every single time. The process can be speeded up, but not without risks, or costs of money, time, and damage, which do not need to be paid.

Offline mikem

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2020, 07:13:17 am »
Although many of the moors are "deer forest", there aren't many trees!

https://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/what_is_a_climax_forest

Offline kay

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2020, 08:37:06 am »
It was Kay's maths that didn't work (but it was based on a misrepresentation of the figures).

Based on the figures given, in what way was my arithmetic wrong? Are you suggesting that 15% isn't, as an approximation, about twice 7%?

The statement may be wrong (as it was based on a figure that was wrong) but the "maths" wasn't.


Offline mikem

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2020, 08:44:58 am »
I didn't say your maths was wrong, I said it didn't work. I thought the same as you, that 15% was total land area, so the maths in the book was incorrect...

Offline kay

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2020, 08:48:19 am »
Yes, the woodland will take over, but that's not the habitat that is required by hen harrier & merlin, and it's not as effective a carbon store as peat bog.

Is it really "rewilding" to intervene to design the habitat you want?

Quote

Although many of the moors are "deer forest", there aren't many trees!

I believe "forest" originally denoted "hunting ground" which by definition wouldn't work with a dense tree cover.

Offline mikem

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2020, 09:48:23 am »
There isn't really any wild habitat left in the UK anyway. Red deer, wild boar & aurochs are all woodland species.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2020, 10:54:31 am »
Is it really "rewilding" to intervene to design the habitat you want?
Quote

It's not really any different to the present situation - just a different designer and objective.

It's a question of who is claiming the moral high ground, either ecologically or socioeconomically.

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Offline A_Northerner

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2020, 11:44:43 am »
The way I understand it as a layperson is that the moors need to be managed to keep them as peat moors. 2xw isn't saying that they won't "return to nature" if they're left alone but this wouldn't be the most carbon-economical method of managing the moors.

It's not "re-wilding" and it doesn't claim to be - it's land management.

If the moors are left as they are (cut for drainage to provide natural habitat for grouse) then they'll be more likely to burn every year and release all the carbon they have stored. Whereas a managed return to moorland involves building in water retention and stuff.
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Offline Duck ditch

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2020, 11:56:59 am »
I don’t think it’s too hard to claim the moral high ground over people who kills animals for fun.  It’s a very low bar to get over. 
However even these people could tidy up after themselves.  The chequerboard look of northern England On google is very depressing for me. 
Also, the argument that the ground is so degraded that we might as well carry on, seems a poor argument to me.  It’s less than 200 years of misuse on an earth that’s 4 billion years old or even 6000yrs old if that’s how your brain works.

Offline droid

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2020, 12:59:59 pm »
Droid again drags out his "wasteland to climax" line. It's complete nonsense, beside the fact that the concept of "climax" ecosystems is mostly useless.


The information came from my Ecology lecturer at Newcastle University, and he observed it from childhood, so I proffer the possibility that his knowledge of woodland ecology is rather more than yours  :lol:
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Offline Badlad

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2020, 01:35:39 pm »
Human arrogance is such that it believes humans can manage land much better than mother nature.  I'm pretty sure that is misguided.
 :o

Offline A_Northerner

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2020, 01:55:52 pm »
Human arrogance is such that it believes humans can manage land much better than mother nature.  I'm pretty sure that is misguided.
 :o

Well... we kinda can. By studying how nature "manages land" on its own, we can work alongside it to speed up the process of reinvigoration.

The exact woodland that droid is referring to, opposite Lawrencefield Estate, hasn't been restored entirely naturally it's been helped along by Park Rangers because they understand how pioneering woodland develops and can speed the process up.
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Offline Ed

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2020, 02:24:15 pm »
Although many of the moors are "deer forest", there aren't many trees!

https://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/what_is_a_climax_forest

A forest was unenclosed / uncultivated land kept as a hunting estate - often containing woodland but not exclusively

- hence the legal powers of Foresters (estate police for want of better description). The were constables of the hunting estate not lumberjack / wood collectors. Epping Forest Keepers and Hampstead Heath Constabulary

Alot were acquired by the monasteries and turned over to wool and charcoal production 

Common modern mistake think of forest as woodland ---

Offline mikem

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2020, 04:01:26 pm »
Even though the main quarry species were woodland ones! But by the time of the Domesday book, trees were already down to 15% of land over (& reduced to 7% by increasing populations, before they started to replant).

Meanwhile Mother Nature does just restock by trial & error, until there is some sort of balance.

Offline crickleymal

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2020, 05:43:33 pm »
Even though the main quarry species were woodland ones! But by the time of the Domesday book, trees were already down to 15% of land over (& reduced to 7% by increasing populations, before they started to replant).

Meanwhile Mother Nature does just restock by trial & error, until there is some sort of balance.
I have it on fairly good authority that the Forest of Dean was open fields until the late saxon period. Lidar scans have revealed prehistoric field systems.
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Offline Kenilworth

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2020, 12:45:52 am »
Droid again drags out his "wasteland to climax" line. It's complete nonsense, beside the fact that the concept of "climax" ecosystems is mostly useless.


The information came from my Ecology lecturer at Newcastle University, and he observed it from childhood, so I proffer the possibility that his knowledge of woodland ecology is rather more than yours  :lol:

As you've said before. I remain unimpressed.

His knowledge of woodland ecology may well be immense. In which case you've misunderstood or misrepresented him, or he's a propagandist. More likely though he was simply ignorant, and the misunderstanding was his own. Either way, it has been very lazy of you to cite such obvious silliness for so long.

Ecology, specificly of woods and farms, is my one of my primary passions. I am in every sense an amateur, but not an ignoramus, and not likely to color my learning with politics.

Offline droid

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2020, 01:35:42 am »

Ecology, specificly of woods and farms, is my one of my primary passions. I am in every sense an amateur,s.

It may be 'a passion' but it seems rather unpolluted by anything like understanding.

You like over-complicating things. As you do with caving, the cod philosophy and unwillingness to accept the views of others, so you are with ecology. Maybe you do it to 'prove' you aren't an ignoramus.

Woodland ecology isn't 'astoundingly complex', even at graduate level.
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Offline Duck ditch

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2020, 08:38:56 am »
My knowledge of woodland, heaths and moorland is very small.
However I doubt very much that our habitats require any more red legged partridges and pheasants  . Especially as they are only bred to get shot later for fun.  Even Then they could tidy up after themselves.
Are there any knowledgeable scientific papers arguing that It’s better to release these non native species to improve habitats?
Our heather moorland is improved to help the native red grouse. Now people are telling me it’s too degraded to do anything else.  Well I say we could easily manipulate this moorland so that I can go hunting the native sphagnum moss or admire the hunting skills of hen harriers and short eared owls.


Offline mikem

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2020, 09:14:26 am »
There are plenty of papers arguing against the numbers involved, but they generally don't have any suggestions for not turning the woodlands into fields for greater profit...

Offline Kenilworth

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2020, 02:32:07 pm »

Ecology, specificly of woods and farms, is my one of my primary passions. I am in every sense an amateur,s.

It may be 'a passion' but it seems rather unpolluted by anything like understanding.

You like over-complicating things. As you do with caving, the cod philosophy and unwillingness to accept the views of others, so you are with ecology. Maybe you do it to 'prove' you aren't an ignoramus.

Woodland ecology isn't 'astoundingly complex', even at graduate level.

 :) I'm not interested in graduate level ecology, or any such little games. This is in large part because I seek understanding, not scholarly indoctrination. Understanding depends on gathering information, including listening to the views of others, but not on accepting everything, be it said by the Professor, or a stranger on the internet, or the farmer down the lane. Information must be tested against the world and against other information. As in most things, I am yet far from understanding.

You may truly find ecology to be a simple matter. Maybe it is. Perhaps I overcomplicate it. I find it to be complex, which is to find it interesting and enriching. Perhaps my small mind has blessed me by making the world appear so abundant. Anyway, have you ever considered the full meaning of the claim you've cited? Can you explain the process and how it is possible?

Offline Duck ditch

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2020, 03:32:14 pm »
I was prepared to read a scientific paper that says pheasants are good for woodland ecology. Is there one? 
Not one that says not really but if you want to make a profit, do this. That’s not science.
Its like reading A paper on how Vadose canyons are caused by erosion but there is no money in it until you make it into a show cave.
I do take the point though. There is no money in tiding up the rubbish abandoned or admiring hen harriers. Whereas admiring your killing skills against the  pheasant in a battle of wits, gun against beak turns a decent profit.

Offline 2xw

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2020, 05:01:44 pm »
They're likely to end up as huge sources of carbon to the fluvial system and the atmosphere and huge risks for wildfire.

Leaving them is similar to leaving toxic waste instead of clearing it up. In my professional opinion many of them are beyond the point of being able to repair themselves

Pretty much all the places I have ever seen that have been abandoned have seen a remarkable takeover by nature in very short order!

Surely the heather would grow until it is outcompeted by taller species etc, until it's forested again?

Is there an example of such a landscape being abandoned and it not recovering of its own accord?

Chris.

The natural succession of heather is that it becomes tall and rank, and as the land gets wetter the heather falls over and becomes a matrix for growth of sphagnum.

Unfortunately because many moorlands (that should be blanket bog) were drained with dug channels (this is mostly not a grouse moor thing, but due to post-war pressures to convert land for agricultural use) the land will stay dry.

This increases the risk of wildfire which sets things back and consequently if you want degraded moorland to come back to a beneficial blanket bog you need a campaign of ditch blocking, and, sometimes management of Calluna overdominance (but not via burning it!). In the most degraded peatlands it requires liming, seeding with lowland grass, gully blocking, stabilisation with geotextiles and brash spreading.

For some examples of ecosystems that definitely would not have/haven't been reinvigorated on their own, visit Moorhouse in Teesdale, the top of Kinder Scout, most of the Eastern Moors in the Peak, most of the land the Yorkshire Peat Partnership is working on, Knockfin Heights in Scotland, in fact have a look on Google earth at any area with bare peat and I can guarantee you that needs a restoration.

Some people use examples of slag heaps with plants on them etc, but this isn't really an example of nature recovering - it's an example of nature surviving.

Duckditch, there is no doubt some papers that present evidence of benefits from shoot management and pheasant stocking for woodland ecology. That's because if you ask a scientist a question you're likely to get three answers. Have a gander at the GWCT site. 

The problem with all of these discussions on land management is that we must first decide what we want from the land.

Do we want upland heath, moor, and bog to provide clean water and carbon sequestration benefits? Then we need to rewet them and embark on peatland restoration programmes. This doesn't necessarily exclude hunting, but probably does exclude driven grouse.

Do we want our uplands peatlands to trend to their "natural" successional state, which appears to be birch scrub followed by eventual forest? Fine, but we'd probably have to take radical actions to offset the carbon losses this would entail - perhaps completely banning cars and aeroplanes.

I suppose there's also the option of keeping grouse moors as they are, which entails us paying higher water bills and offsetting the other associated negatives. In which case dig ditches and burn away!

Other options include true "rewilding" (just leaving them) which would result in wildfire, carbon loss and heather monocultures.

If we were really imaginative we could convert it to productive land and lead the world in cranberry production!

 

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