Author Topic: Trespass  (Read 3353 times)

Offline droid

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2020, 08:27:02 pm »
Can you explain the process and how it is possible?

Yes.
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline JasonC

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2020, 05:27:57 pm »
.....Whereas admiring your killing skills against the  pheasant in a battle of wits, gun against beak turns a decent profit.

Whatever pheasant-shooting is (besides a disgusting exhibition of wealth), it isn't a battle of wits.  Pheasants must be the stupidest birds in creation, to judge by the number that hurl themselves into traffic.

Offline mikem

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2020, 05:40:30 pm »
Closely followed by (& related to) chickens, but they tend to be more contained.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2020, 09:46:45 pm »
I'm enjoying the mixing of the two arguments here - blatant classism (jealousy?) and the ecology of abandoned landscapes!

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Offline Big Bad Botch

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2020, 10:53:25 am »
I think that part of what is misinforming this debate is the classic idea of a single 'climax' community. The desire to keep nature in a single 'ideal' state (especially closed canopy forest!) is what gets us into trouble a lot of the time. The current prevailing idea is of a natural cycle, with a pioneer and mature stage as in the classical model, but with two stages of destruction (e.g. wildfire) and restructure (e.g. decomposition) completing the cycle. This restructure is where ecosystems can shift to a different organisation to adapt to changing conditions. Trying to suppress the destruction is generally what leads to larger collapse (e.g. building up of fuel load leading to unprecedented fires). For the seminal paper (with examples) on this see Holling 1994 'Simplifying the Complex' (for the full paper try scihub).

Suffice to say, I don't really believe in woodlands being our ideal state, especially on peat lands. The natural state would likely be something more akin to your deer forests, with patches of mature vegetation and different habitats e.g. grassland between - variation in the stages of the cycle in both time and space, with different 'climax' stable species assemblages. Modern ecological science believes that for one set of conditions there can be a number of stable states of an ecosystem for a given set of conditions, with the previous states determining which state is currently present. (see the science of tipping points e.g. Scheffer 2009 for some quite interesting but dense information on this).

The summary of this rambling is that I don't think that 2xw is either advocating keeping grouse moors as it's easier, or that humans know better for the ecosystem. It's simply that there are multiple 'climax' ecosystems that could be occupying this land, principally a deciduous forest or a blanket bog. One of these (the forest) will involve the release of a shedload of stored carbon currently in the form of peat as the soils dry out. However with the state that we've left the peat in, it is more likely to naturally succeed to forest (Though it is worth pointing out that neither end point is no more or less 'natural' than the other - it really depends on where you place the goalposts). It is not easy to shift the system back to blanket bog, but the end point is theoretically achievable in our climatic conditions, and has a massive benefit in terms of carbon storage, water quality, flood prevention, wildfire reduction.

Me and 2xw both have worked on the moors and seen the reality of this work. It is ecological engineering on a massive scale, with gully blocking, reseeding etc as previously mentioned; but is justifiable in my opinion. However, someone needs to pay for it (currently in the Peak this is in no small part an EU Life grant). The grouse moors are unlikely to pay too much towards it as it interferes with their sport. It is very unsurprising that a system designed for the fun of the rich few is not well designed for the needs of the many who actually live near the moors. Of course it is a very complicated question with many different stakeholders (e.g. what happens when the moors are too wet for the ramblers to cross Kinder Scout?). And it is certainly not rewilding......

Online RobinGriffiths

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2020, 03:09:56 pm »
I was walking up past Old Gang and round the back of Surrender yesterday and there were tons of new grouse butts, with loads of new timer for building more. All the butts seem to be next to the track, so I guess someone ferries the 'sportsmen' up in a lanrover, and they stagger a few metres to their butt.

Online Fjell

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2020, 08:29:31 am »
I was walking up past Old Gang and round the back of Surrender yesterday and there were tons of new grouse butts, with loads of new timer for building more. All the butts seem to be next to the track, so I guess someone ferries the 'sportsmen' up in a lanrover, and they stagger a few metres to their butt.

It is somewhat dwarfed by the 3 million who go fishing. I see little difference except the average cost. Paying to shoot is a bit naff really. One should only shoot on ones own land, or reciprocally with acquaintances. Top end fishing is certainly more posh and expensive than grouse shooting.

Offline 2xw

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2020, 08:30:16 am »
If anyone's interested in some of the eco-philosoohy, there's Monbiots "feral" which argues for (British) rewilding, and for the counterpoint there's an essay "the problem with wilderness" by Cronon here: http://www.williamcronon.net/writing/Trouble_with_Wilderness_Main.html#:~:text=But%20the%20trouble%20with%20wilderness,its%20devotees%20seek%20to%20reject.&text=If%20we%20allow%20ourselves%20to,place%20where%20nature%20is%20not.

Online Fjell

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2020, 08:53:48 am »
If anyone's interested in some of the eco-philosoohy, there's Monbiots "feral" which argues for (British) rewilding, and for the counterpoint there's an essay "the problem with wilderness" by Cronon here: http://www.williamcronon.net/writing/Trouble_with_Wilderness_Main.html#:~:text=But%20the%20trouble%20with%20wilderness,its%20devotees%20seek%20to%20reject.&text=If%20we%20allow%20ourselves%20to,place%20where%20nature%20is%20not.

Monbiot is increasingly tiresome. The UK has barely half the land area of Montana (as an example), with 60 times the population. The reality of England in particular is that we are talking about small nature preserves for recreation and general ambiance amongst an urban and intensive agricultural environment. We should do what it is possible, but there needs to be a sense of reality that is often absent in Islington.

Articles that effectively advocate using granite as aquifers make your eyes roll a bit. Cut and paste Google engineering doesn’t always work. Someone needs to tell him that trees are not always an optimal end point.

Online pwhole

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2020, 11:45:38 am »

It is somewhat dwarfed by the 3 million who go fishing. I see little difference except the average cost. Paying to shoot is a bit naff really. One should only shoot on ones own land, or reciprocally with acquaintances. Top end fishing is certainly more posh and expensive than grouse shooting.

A few years ago I was invited to join a local fishing club on a Derbyshire river and it was £500 joining fee, plus £200 a season - limited to 16 people a year on a 2-mile stretch, with loads of restrictions on tackle and technique. I pointed out that I can fish on the River Don, more or less identical in stock, geography and general natural beauty, from Deepcar near Stocksbridge to Meadowhall retail park, halfway to Rotherham, for free - about 15 miles in total. Of course most people who pay to fish won't fish that area because it's free - and it's not in Derbyshire. It's still full of trout and grayling though.

Offline al

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2020, 12:23:25 pm »
Monbiot is increasingly tiresome.

He certainly is. These days we need more more like him to question attitudes.
Old ... but not old enough to know any better

Offline ILT

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2020, 12:34:56 pm »
Whatever pheasant-shooting is (besides a disgusting exhibition of wealth), it isn't a battle of wits.  Pheasants must be the stupidest birds in creation, to judge by the number that hurl themselves into traffic.

Generally a fascinating thread and the suicidal pheasants intrigue me.
Male pheasants will trot along in front of the car until getting hit. Females tend to head off the road when approached.

Online Fulk

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2020, 01:32:53 pm »
Well, I can’t say I associate such daft behaviour with pheasants (and there are a lot of them around our part of the world).
For another take on pheasant psychology consider this little anecdote: several months ago (pre-lockdown) Miranda and I were out somewhere in the Dales when we came across two pheasants at the side of the road, one of which was dead, having been killed by a vehicle, I suppose; I can’t remember whether it was the male or the female. Anyway, the still-alive one was walking round and round the body, frequently going in close to it to nuzzle it and try to get it to stand up, I guess. It was obvious to us that the live bird was grieving for its mate.

Offline mikem

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Re: Trespass
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2020, 02:25:55 pm »
Although pheasants don't really go in for pairing up, so another possibility is that it was eating insects from around the corpse.

They don't have any road sense at this time of year as they have generally been kicked out of a large pen where they have been protected & fed since hatching.

 

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