Making cowstails.. Rope age question

benshannon · Sep 24, 2020

I want to make some cowstails and I have a climbing rope in the loft that I haven't used for ~10years. It never took a big fall, but I appreciate I shouldn't use it for climbing anymore, would it be OK as cows tails or is there an age of rope that you should not use despite it not having much use over its life?

langcliffe · Sep 24, 2020

It's the sort of stuff that I make mine of!

ChrisJC · Sep 24, 2020

Given you can buy brand new rope for ?2/meter, why faff about with some dodgy old baler twine?

Chris.

Ian Ball · Sep 24, 2020

Personally I would say don't fall on it and you'll be fine.

langcliffe · Sep 24, 2020

ChrisJC said:
why faff about with some dodgy old baler twine?

???? - Beale say 15 years, and that will be conservative.

georgenorth · Sep 24, 2020

Climbing rope does not degrade with time alone (certainly not 10 years). Some good advice here: https://www.theuiaa.org/documents/safety/Recommendations_Standard_101_BMC.pdf

cap n chris · Sep 24, 2020

Obviously you're insane. Your safety connectors are your principal life saving PPE. Price for your life?

badger · Sep 24, 2020

for the sake of ?5.00 why would you risk your life on old rope even if you believe it is in good condition. And regardless to the condition of my cows tails still look good, I change them regularly. And I thought beal rope as 10 years from start of use, but can be kept upto to 5 years after manufacture before use.

Mike Hopley · Sep 24, 2020

If the rope should not be used for climbing, then it should not be used for cowstails either.

Aging of ropes is a debatable subject, but the manufacturers' recommendations are clear. Nowadays they typically state a maximum lifespan of 10 years, starting from the first use. That assumes the rope is lightly and occasionally used and in good condition.

They also normally say that an unused rope may be kept in storage for an additional 5 years, so potentially up to 15 years total if stored correctly for 5 years before its first use.

These recommendations are no doubt quite conservative. It's up to you! Personally, I like to have complete faith in my SRT kit.

Bob Mehew · Sep 24, 2020

Little falls deposit a surprising amount of energy into a short length of rope and with bits of ironmongery even more than in a big fall. (See note 5 at the bottom of page 6 in https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=rope_testing:lanyard_tests_v6.pdf ) As Badger says, for ?6 ready made why take the risk?

And always relax the knots after very trip. Even just hanging on a cows tail tightens them and increases the shock loading if you do fall.

Mike Hopley · Sep 24, 2020

Bob Mehew said:
And always relax the knots after very trip. Even just hanging on a cows tail tightens them and increases the shock loading if you do fall.

This advice seems highly impractical if you do much SRT, especially if you're using 9mm rope for your cowstails.

I also don't think it's supported by the evidence. Those oft-referenced lanyard tests found acceptable peak forces in heavily-used cowstails, provided they were made from knotted dynamic rope (manufactured cowstails fared rather badly).

Once sufficiently tightened, it may actually be worse to undo knots. This has been noted in some ropework texts if I recall correctly (Life on a Line?).

Bob Mehew · Sep 24, 2020

Mike Hopley said:
I also don't think it's supported by the evidence.

Sorry I am way behind publishing it but as a taster, data for 10mm dynamic on brand new rope. Long is the 75cm tail and short is the 35cm tail. 6kN is the treshold for injury used in the standards.

And by the way I did not say undo the knots, I said RELAX them - a world of difference.

mikem · Sep 24, 2020

In most situations, tight knots won't break, but they will transmit more force to your body.

Mike Hopley · Sep 24, 2020

There will be a huge difference between knot tightness following a severe fall, and just during normal use.

If you take a really heavy fall onto your cowstails, the safest thing to do is probably cutting new ones from any spare rope you have (like the end of the pitch rope). Failing that, you could try "relaxing" them, though it may prove difficult!

Repeatedly taking factor 1 falls onto your cowstails does not seem like a good idea.

Ian Ball · Sep 24, 2020

Cowstails out of semi-static? better than shockloaded dynamic?

mikem · Sep 25, 2020

That does depend what you are using them for, & how badly you shock loaded them, but not for normal caving...

cap n chris · Sep 25, 2020

Mike Hopley said:
Bob Mehew said:

And always relax the knots after very trip. Even just hanging on a cows tail tightens them and increases the shock loading if you do fall.

Click to expand...

This advice seems highly impractical if you do much SRT, especially if you're using 9mm rope for your cowstails.

You quickly get used to it. We've been untieing and retieing safety connectors twice a day, most days, for four years, multiple sets, based on the BCA advisory notification online. Insurers spot this kind of thing.

benshannon · Sep 25, 2020

Thanks for the info guys. I'll buy some new rope. Just seems a shame to have a nearly immaculate rope going to waste. Ah well.

Pete K · Sep 25, 2020

Your local climbing wall may have a recycling bin for it. It might end up as a dog lead, door mat or some other item instead of heading to landfill.

georgenorth · Sep 25, 2020

benshannon said:
Thanks for the info guys. I'll buy some new rope. Just seems a shame to have a nearly immaculate rope going to waste. Ah well.

The downside of asking for technical advice on an Internet forum...

Making cowstails.. Rope age question

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