Author Topic: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.  (Read 3226 times)

Offline MarkS

  • Global Moderator
  • junky
  • *****
  • Posts: 808
  • BBPC, YCC
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2021, 01:53:14 pm »
I can understand people's apathetic views towards voting.

It's a shame (and pretty ironic) that less than half the electorate could be bothered to vote in 2011 for which system they wanted to use.

Offline PeteHall

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2021, 01:54:18 pm »
And those who did vote roundly rejected PR...

Online JoshW

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 620
  • YSS, BCA Youth and Development, BCA Group Rep
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2021, 01:56:24 pm »
And those who did vote roundly rejected PR...

The 2011 referendum had nothing to do with PR. it was alternative vote vs FPTP

Edit: and that kind of stumbles upon a possible reason for low voter turnout - lack of understanding over what was voted for. I don't think alternative voting actually offers any better representation than FPTP and has some of the same stumbling blocks.

Offline badger

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 714
  • WSCC. WCC
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2021, 01:56:53 pm »
first past the post you end up with UKIP (not my choice by any means) end up with more votes in what ever election cant remember, more votes but only 2 seats as opposed the SNP who had less votes but 30 seats number of seats may not be quite correct, but you get the picture.
Time for this country to evolve to Proportional representation, I know it also has its downfalls but better than first past the post,
but all of this is getting away from the original post, which would be easy to sort by government putting a distance to what they think is reasonable distance to travel for exercise.  But whatever guidence/legal is in place, there is always people who will push the limits

Offline PeteHall

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2021, 02:04:15 pm »
And those who did vote roundly rejected PR...
The 2011 referendum had nothing to do with PR. it was alternative vote vs FPTP

Sorry my mistake, AV, not PR, it was a long time ago and much beer has been consumed since... But either way, the electorate seemed to favour the status quo.

Online JoshW

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 620
  • YSS, BCA Youth and Development, BCA Group Rep
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2021, 02:08:48 pm »
And those who did vote roundly rejected PR...
The 2011 referendum had nothing to do with PR. it was alternative vote vs FPTP

Sorry my mistake, AV, not PR, it was a long time ago and much beer has been consumed since... But either way, the electorate seemed to favour the status quo.

Or they had no interest in endorsing a shoddily worded referendum (shock horror another one!).

The wording of that referendum should have been:
Should Westminster consider replacing FPTP with another system of voting, including but not limited to alternative voting and proportional representation?
[] Yes
[] No

You'd then hope that the majority would vote yes, the government would put forwards information on each of the possible options, with pros and cons, and put forwards to a secondary referendum.

What we actually got was a straight choice between the status quo and a system marginally better in some ways, but that doesn't fundamentally alter the key issue of representation.

Offline mikem

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4398
  • Mendip Caving Group
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2021, 02:31:43 pm »
Not wanting to sidetrack this discussion (even more!) but Brexit actually had the highest turnout since the 1992 election - although only slightly above 1997:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1050929/voter-turnout-in-the-uk/

The Tories did at least get more votes overall than Labour, unlike Trump, who got less than Hilary.

Online JoshW

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 620
  • YSS, BCA Youth and Development, BCA Group Rep
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2021, 02:35:55 pm »
Not wanting to sidetrack this discussion (even more!) but Brexit actually had the highest turnout since the 1992 election - although only slightly above 1997:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1050929/voter-turnout-in-the-uk/

reckon that'll roughly correlate with the amount of money spent on "election" campaigns? got no stats to back that up, just a thought.

Offline mikem

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4398
  • Mendip Caving Group

Online JoshW

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 620
  • YSS, BCA Youth and Development, BCA Group Rep
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2021, 04:29:21 pm »
Seems there is a parliamentary paper on that subject:
http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN07152/SN07152.pdf

& https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/election-spend-2000-half-1997-contest/50121

Interesting, unfortunately doesn't cover up to the date of B-Day, but some cool stats in there.

Offline bagpuss

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #60 on: February 09, 2021, 09:03:49 pm »
The mad thing about the exercise rule is that where I live (Bristol) everyone is driving to the local open space to walk in, so it becomes busy and harder to social distance. If we drove out of the city we could walk without seeing barely anyone by using public footpaths and areas we know not to be well known. I've not been into a shop since last March, or caving (limiting indoor contacts for health reasons) but the staying local rule is the hardest thing to deal with. If we lived in the countryside I know the impact of lockdown would not have had such a significant on my management of mental illness and by walking in isolated places less risk of catching or passing on the virus.

Offline Cap'n Chris

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 12366
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #61 on: February 09, 2021, 09:05:59 pm »
Question:
Is it not the case that in UK law you do not have to talk to a police officer, even if you are being arrested ("..You have a right to remain silent etc...")?

If this is the case then the obvious go-to is to not talk and therefore it means you don't need any excuse to be out and about whatsoever, 'cos if you ain't talkin', there's nothing to explain. You do have to stop when ordered to do so by a police officer but after that there's v little they can do. So I believe/understand.


Offline Rachel

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 698
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #62 on: February 09, 2021, 10:07:32 pm »

The police up here have been driving around and 'sending people away' from sites like Ribblehead, Storrs Common and even Kingsdale if they aren't 'local' (they are using 10 miles as a guideline);

Is the 10 mile guideline an offcial thing? As a local it would make my life a lot easier, as I've been driving to Ingleton (Kingsdale and Storrs Common included) for exercise but have been unsure if going further is ok or not from a police point of view.

Offline PeteHall

  • Global Moderator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1538
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #63 on: February 09, 2021, 10:24:57 pm »
Is the 10 mile guideline an offcial thing?

Assume not as the Covid Regulations do not restrict the distance travelled for exercise and the term 'local area' has deliberately not been defined in the regulations.

You cannot legally be fined for leaving your home for exercise, no matter how far you travel, however if the police ask you to return home, you are still obliged to follow their instructions. So the worst that can happen is that you drive to your preferred quiet location for a walk and get sent home again. Though the reality is that the plod will be hanging out in the honey pot sites, so if you go somewhere quiet, you are unlikely to have any trouble at all.

Offline Cap'n Chris

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 12366
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #64 on: February 09, 2021, 10:33:00 pm »
See link at bottom of this news item, very telling.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-55781735

Offline Cap'n Chris

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 12366
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #65 on: February 09, 2021, 10:33:57 pm »
Is the 10 mile guideline an offcial thing?

No. It's bollocks. It's a guideline; it's not law. Guidelines are not legally enforceable. People engaging with the police might be issued an (illegal) fine which they might choose to pay though. Don't engage, don't explain; just live your life.


Offline RobinGriffiths

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #66 on: February 09, 2021, 11:15:54 pm »
Question:
Is it not the case that in UK law you do not have to talk to a police officer, even if you are being arrested ("..You have a right to remain silent etc...")?

If this is the case then the obvious go-to is to not talk and therefore it means you don't need any excuse to be out and about whatsoever, 'cos if you ain't talkin', there's nothing to explain. You do have to stop when ordered to do so by a police officer but after that there's v little they can do. So I believe/understand.

That appears to be so, but apparantly, some police officers have used the lack of response to imply reasonable grounds to suspect that an offence has been committed under the Covid rules.

Online Oceanrower

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 357
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #67 on: February 09, 2021, 11:40:01 pm »
I've not been into a shop since last March, or caving (limiting indoor contacts for health reasons) but the staying local rule is the hardest thing to deal with.

Fortunately, whatever the doommongerers would have you believe, the “staying local” rule is not actually a rule but merely a figment of what this incompetent government would want you to believe...

There is NO requirement to stay local if exercising (in England, other nations of the UK may differ) only that you need a reasonable excuse to leave your house. Exercise is a reasonable excuse.

I would be absolutely shocked if any of these FPN’s, if challenged, were upheld. They have absolutely no basis in law. That’s not to say that the police won’t issue them and hope they’re not challenged...

Online JoshW

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 620
  • YSS, BCA Youth and Development, BCA Group Rep
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2021, 12:35:55 am »


For some reason I just don’t get the feeling that this man has my best interests at heart. Could it be that he’s anti-lockdown not because he believes older lives are worthless (see 2014 statements regarding the inherent sanctity of all human life), but in fact is just hoping for best returns from wherever he’s invested his millions in lifetime earnings and inheritance. The fact he’s written a book that is anti-equality should also concern all.

Offline RobinGriffiths

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2021, 01:58:07 am »
I suspect that Sumption is more of a Viz Mr Logic type of character rather than anything more sinister.

Offline ChrisJC

  • Funky
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1382
    • http://www.cowdery.org.uk
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #70 on: February 10, 2021, 06:35:31 am »
I guess the government were hoping that the proles were capable of working out what 'local' meant, and abiding by it, without the need for application of the legal stick.

It seems they were wrong.

Chris.
--
http://www.cowdery.org.uk
Mines, caves,
Land Rovers

Offline Cap'n Chris

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 12366
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2021, 06:47:10 am »
.. some police officers have used the lack of response to imply reasonable grounds to suspect that an offence has been committed under the Covid rules.

So there is no right of silence? Clearly there is and clearly such police officers as mentioned above are breaking the lawful procedure. Any fine they issued should be ignored and if the courts pursued it, challenged.


Offline Speleofish

  • menacing presence
  • **
  • Posts: 186
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #73 on: February 10, 2021, 08:58:12 am »
Oh dear. Sumption makes very cogent, very good arguments (he should, that's what he's spent a lifetime doing brilliantly) but doesn't start from a neutral position. He has always argued for individual freedoms rather than communal good, no matter what evidence there is that such freedoms lead to greater harms.

The Mail article is similarly biased (I accept, so am I but in the opposite direction). However, any position that implicitly accepts 750,000 deaths is difficult to agree with.

Offline NeilC

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Covid travel restrictions and Police fines etc.
« Reply #74 on: February 10, 2021, 09:12:20 am »
I guess the government were hoping that the proles were capable of working out what 'local' meant, and abiding by it, without the need for application of the legal stick.

It seems they were wrong.

Chris.

That's a very charitable interpretation of the Government's actions.  It seems more likely to me that the 'rules' are deliberately vague / confusing / contradictory so that the Government can blame the 'proles' for the disastrous situation we find ourselves in, rather than itself.  After all, they do have a history of issuing vague and contradictory rules / guidelines throughout the pandemic, not to mention the frequent screeching u-turns. 

 

Main Menu

Forum Home Help Search
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal