Author Topic: topic split - Last night of the Proms and Patriotism (Read 1110 times)

crickleymal · « **Reply #25 on:** September 14, 2021, 12:39:37 am »

Being half Welsh and a touch Irish I'm more than happy to see Wales and Scotland go their separate ways. I'm fed up with the Tory jingoism that we seem to have lapsed into during and post brexit. I've no problem with patriotism but I'm seeing less and less to be patriotic about.
And as regards the terms snowflake and woke. It seems to me to be a way of getting a rise out of someone. I'm quite happy to defend my left leaning politics vigorously and physically.

Oceanrower · « **Reply #26 on:** September 14, 2021, 01:59:47 am »

Quote from: crickleymal on September 14, 2021, 12:39:37 am

I'm quite happy to defend my left leaning politics vigorously and physically.

Gotta love the internet. There’s always some wannabe hard man willing to beat someone up for having a different opinion. At least, from behind a keyboard…

crickleymal · « **Reply #27 on:** September 14, 2021, 02:21:51 am »

No it's nothing like that. It's just that snowflake and such get waved around so much that it really pisses me off

sinker · « **Reply #28 on:** September 14, 2021, 08:15:15 am »

Quote from: crickleymal on September 14, 2021, 02:21:51 am

No it's nothing like that. It's just that snowflake and such get waved around so much that it really pisses me off

I can tell you that there is no one more "left-leaning" / socialist (with a lower-case "s"...) than me in my political view of the world but I still know a snowflake when I see one; lazy, feckless, someone who knows ALL of their rights but not their responsibilities.

OK so veering even further off-topic; if anyone has a more agreeable word than "snowflake" then I'm more than happy to adopt it.

mikem · « **Reply #29 on:** September 14, 2021, 08:49:02 am »

He doesn't sound particularly nationalistic, especially by the measure of his times: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._C._Benson

mikem · « **Reply #30 on:** September 14, 2021, 08:58:02 am »

& the spitting image sketch was called "Last night at the yobs": https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=625145611772462&_rdr

But there are various other versions of Land of Hopeless Tories available...

royfellows · « **Reply #31 on:** September 14, 2021, 09:05:59 am »

Seeing the direction this thread is starting to wonder reinforces what i said in my earlier post.

ZombieCake · « **Reply #32 on:** September 14, 2021, 10:19:07 am »

Quote

I still know a snowflake when I see one; lazy, feckless, someone who knows ALL of their rights but not their responsibilities.

Seems about right to me. Presumably it also includes those who get offended at everything as some sort of a hobby?

tony from suffolk · « **Reply #33 on:** September 14, 2021, 10:39:29 am »

"Snowflake" as a derogatory term which originated from Trump and his crew - On Christmas Eve 2019 the Donald Trump campaign launched a website called snowflakevictory.com to give guidance to Trump’s supporters about how to deal with their “liberal relatives” over the holiday period. It featured 12 hot-button topics (immigration, impeachment, the environment etc). So if you were someone who happened to care for the environment and believed humans were largely responsible for global warming, believed trump should be thrown in jail, thought it was wrong to separate immigrant children from their parents & chuck them in compounds, and expressed the desire to help anyone less fortunate, indeed exhibited any form of what you could regard as the Christian ethic, then they were a "Snowflake".

I confess to being one of those.

sinker · « **Reply #34 on:** September 14, 2021, 10:52:59 am »

Quote from: tony from suffolk on September 14, 2021, 10:39:29 am

…."Snowflake" as a derogatory term which originated from Trump and his crew - On Christmas Eve 2019 the Donald Trump campaign launched a website called snowflakevictory.com....

No, sorry; in our context:

…."snowflake" was first used as an insult in 1996 novel Fight Club. "You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everyone, and we are all part of the same compost pile."

In an earlier, completely separate meaning and useage, that we are not concerned with here:

In Missouri in the early 1860s, a "Snowflake" was a person who was opposed to the abolition of slavery—the implication of the name being that such people valued white people over black people. The Snowflakes hoped slavery would survive the country's civil war....

Totally unconnected but I include it just for completeness.

mikem · « **Reply #35 on:** September 14, 2021, 10:56:54 am »

Both uses have the intention of being derogatory to someone who opposes your view... (Ellipsis just meaning its food for thought)

tony from suffolk · « **Reply #36 on:** September 14, 2021, 10:58:21 am »

Quote from: sinker on September 14, 2021, 10:52:59 am

No, sorry; in my context:

Fixed it for you. And there's me thinking a snowflake is frozen water, especially a feathery ice crystal, typically displaying delicate sixfold symmetry. Shame it's being misused.

mikem · « **Reply #37 on:** September 14, 2021, 11:02:21 am »

Fight Club just made it popular by counter pointing its use as a metaphor for the uniqueness of each individual, he didn't use it as an insult:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-less-lovely-side-of-snowflake

sinker · « **Reply #38 on:** September 14, 2021, 11:02:42 am »

Quote from: tony from suffolk on September 14, 2021, 10:58:21 am

Quote from: sinker on September 14, 2021, 10:52:59 am
No, sorry; in my context:
Fixed it for you. And there's me thinking a snowflake is frozen water, especially a feathery ice crystal, typically displaying delicate sixfold symmetry. Shame it's being misused.

"Our" as in the discussion that we are currently having in this thread, not "our" as in shared views or opinions.

mikem · « **Reply #39 on:** September 14, 2021, 11:07:14 am »

It ought to be used for someone of wishy washy, constantly changing views, given its ephemeral nature!

sinker · « **Reply #40 on:** September 14, 2021, 11:08:07 am »

Quote from: mikem on September 14, 2021, 11:02:21 am

Fight Club just made it popular by counter pointing its use as a metaphor for the uniqueness of each individual, he didn't use it as an insult:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-less-lovely-side-of-snowflake

It was certainly meant in a slightly insulting way; to paraphrase "don't get above yourself or think your special because your not....get a grip"

referring mostly to millennials who were allegedly too convinced of their own status as special and unique people to be able (or bothered) to handle the normal trials and travails of regular adult life.

ttxela2 · « **Reply #41 on:** September 14, 2021, 11:15:22 am »

I've always understood it to mean someone who is unnecessarily or deliberately fragile. i.e. someone unwilling to enter into reasoned debate on a subject, relying instead on their 'right' not to be offended/upset by your viewpoint to end any discussion in their favour.

This does seem to be an increasingly common tactic when emotive topics are discussed and I have some sympathy with those who use the term.

On the other hand some folks use of 'snowflake' itself is almost mirroring that approach, if someone simply objects to a bullish, shouting down of their viewpoint they can be dismissed as a 'snowflake' and their opinion disregarded.

I remember being taught listening and debating skills at school. I don't know if this is still done

having to put forward a case that wouldn't normally be your natural position is a particularly revealing exercise.

mikem · « **Reply #42 on:** September 14, 2021, 11:26:47 am »

The author's own take on the matter:
https://ew.com/books/2017/11/17/chuck-palahniuk-snowflake-insult/

I have to agree with him that the level of mollycoddling has made them the way they are, but then we do tend to overreact to the previous generation.

aardgoose · « **Reply #43 on:** September 14, 2021, 03:41:30 pm »

Quote

I don't think you are. The problem is that the rest of us are running scared of wokesters with a rolled up copies of The Guardian.

A perfect example of the term under discussion. You have the far right authoritarian government of corrupt sociopaths of your choice, stacking the media and regulatory bodies with its puppets, and intent on stacking the electoral system in its favour.

You use the term 'woke' for anyone expressing compassion for any other person. And yet you still play the poor, hard done by victim.

royfellows · « **Reply #44 on:** September 14, 2021, 05:00:17 pm »

Starters orders

Alex · « **Reply #45 on:** September 14, 2021, 05:39:52 pm »

All this reminds me why I spend the majority of my time down caves!

pwhole · « **Reply #46 on:** September 14, 2021, 05:45:54 pm »

Why? Debate is fun - well I enjoy it at least. And it gets things out in the open, rather than folks stewing with rage alone

Fishes · « **Reply #47 on:** September 14, 2021, 06:25:45 pm »

Perhaps we should just bring such traditions up to date. What if we kept the music but updated the words of some of the most controversial songs.

We could start with help from the great Devonshire philosopher. I'm sure that Land of Dope and Story would be a great hit.

Mrs Trellis · « **Reply #48 on:** September 14, 2021, 06:51:49 pm »

If you change traditions they are no longer traditions. If you don't like it don't listen or watch it. I don't listen to drill "music" for the same reason. The Prommers obviously do and their opinion is just as valid as yours.

Fishes · « **Reply #49 on:** September 14, 2021, 06:59:44 pm »

Traditions do change (or evolve) over time and those words have long been celebrated in parts of the Derbyshire underworld.

I don't listen to the proms as I don't feel they reflect the classical music or the environment that I enjoy. I have no idea what drill music is though.