Author Topic: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious  (Read 2210 times)

Offline yrammy

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Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« on: February 08, 2020, 09:44:45 am »
 Anyone know when and why carlswark got its name. it is related to carlwark near hathersage. Why did the s get added?

Thanks
Mary

Offline paul

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2020, 09:50:27 am »
According to Wikipedia:
Quote
Sheffield historian and folklorist S. O. Addy, writing in 1893, posited that the name is Old Norse in origin, meaning 'The Old Man's Fort', where the 'Old Man' refers to the devil—suggesting that the 9th to 10th century Danish settlers in the area regarded the enclosure as ancient and mysterious.

So maybe a connection with T'Owd Man? Its is sometimes spelled Carleswark so maybe a connection with "Charles"? Not an answer, but speculation.
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Offline mikem

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2020, 10:23:57 am »
Just to confirm, above quote is suggested for Carlwark (no S).
Quote
Wark - Name Meaning. Scottish and English (Northumberland): habitational name from Wark on the Tweed river, which is named from Old English (ge)weorc '(earth)works', 'fortification'.
So would appear to refer to the hill originally & the cavern being named after it (or possibly somebody's name).
Quote
Carl is a West Germanic male name meaning "free man". ... It is the first name of many Kings of Sweden including Carl XVI Gustaf. It is popular in Denmark, Iceland, Finland, Norway, and Sweden,
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 10:52:17 am by mikem »

Offline yrammy

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2020, 06:24:27 pm »
Interesting . Will dig around in the caving library on weds to find out more

Offline AR

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2020, 09:15:38 pm »
Mary, suggest you talk to Eyam Museum and see what they've got - Doug Nash's friend Clarrie Daniel collected a lot of history on the village and I believe they've got his archive. I don't know when the first occurrence of the name is but there was the case of the pedlar who was murdered and his body hidden in there in the early 18th century, would be worth checking the original accounts of this to see if the cave was named.
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Offline Pete K

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2020, 10:24:39 pm »
I have read that miners would sometimes refer to the workings of even older miners as Charles' work. From there it is easy to see how that would corrupt to Carlswark.
Wasn't it also known as the Wonder Cavern as the Gin Entrance stope was driven on Wonder Scrin. Must have been cleaner back then!

Offline AR

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2020, 10:15:44 am »
I've come across that Pete, but I'm not convinced it's a genuine usage as opposed to some antiquarian inventing things. I could do with talking to Jim Rieuwerts about a few things so I'll try and remember to ask him about it.
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Offline Fishes

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2020, 10:41:18 am »
Mary, suggest you talk to Eyam Museum and see what they've got - Doug Nash's friend Clarrie Daniel collected a lot of history on the village and I believe they've got his archive. I don't know when the first occurrence of the name is but there was the case of the pedlar who was murdered and his body hidden in there in the early 18th century, would be worth checking the original accounts of this to see if the cave was named.

Clarrie was not only Doug's friend but also John Beck's uncle if I remember correctly.

Offline mikem

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2020, 06:22:44 pm »
The previously mentioned wikipedia article also says Carl Wark (Hathersage) is sometimes known as Carl's Wark:
Quote
The origin of the name Carl Wark is uncertain. Rooke used the name "Cair's Work" in his 1785 description, whereas Bateman used "Carleswark"... The 1802 Derbyshire edition of The Beauties of England and Wales refers to a rock on the site named "Cair's Chair" suggesting the Welsh word Caer meaning fort or rampart as a possible origin - Cair being an old spelling variant.

& this one has further speculation: https://andyhemingway.wordpress.com/2013/10/
Quote
The name Carl Wark seems to have a number of possible derivations.  It is probable that the current name has come down to us from ‘Carl’s Work’, or ‘Charles’ Work’ according to Hayman. Karl being the old Germanic/Nordic version of Charles. It has also been suggested that Carl and Charles are old names for the god Odin, meaning ‘Old Man’ (4) and for the devil also. To the all conquering Christians of the Dark Ages or early Medieval period, Odin was probably cast as the Devil in order to dissuade pagan practises. Meaning that it is the place, work or fort of Odin and variously, the Devil (5).

Another explanation could also be that its modern name is derived from its possible Saxon name ‘Caelswark’, the fort of the Caels (Celts). Caer can also mean a fortified place in Celtic tongues (6).
Interesting that the cave could be interpreted as Odin's (or the Devil's) work - which would presumably suggest a similar mythology to Odin Mine & the Devil's Arse...

Not directly related, but Carlswark is mentioned in here: https://www.themooninn.com/history
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 06:43:28 pm by mikem »

Offline mikem

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2020, 08:01:20 pm »
Possible source of Carl / Charles being a synonym for Odin:
Quote
In the 16th century and by the entire Vasa dynasty, Odin (as Oden) was officially considered the first King of Sweden by that country's government and historians. This was based on an embellished list of rulers invented by Johannes Magnus and adopted as fact in the reign of King Carl IX, who, though numbered accordingly, actually was only Carl III.

But then again carl means "free-man" (& is found in old English as housecarls), which could tie in with T'owd Man.

Too many options...

On a similar vein, is the nearby Merlin Mine an ancient or modern name?

Offline mikem

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2020, 08:39:26 pm »
From The English Dialect Dictionary (1904), which ties in with my preferred option - "the workings of previous generations":
Quote
Carl(e) - Sc. Nhb. Cum. Wm. Yks. Lan. Der. - A man, fellow; a peasant, clown; an old man.

Although, if Merlin is of similar vintage, then that would support a mythical connection!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 08:57:22 pm by mikem »

Offline AR

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2020, 11:07:34 pm »
The earliest mention I know of for Merlin is it being referred to as "Merlin Pipe" in 1850. Having pulled Jim's "Glossary of Lead Mining Terms" off the shelf, he does cite a couple of references suggesting that Carls or Charles Work was used to describe ancient mine workings that had not been worked in living memory, albeit from the later 19th or early 20th century. However, there's a 1730s Barmasters entry that refers to the cavern as Charles-Work.

I don't buy the Caelswark = Celts work theory at all; the Old English "wealas" (Welshman) would be the term used to describe Britons and can be found in a number of other Peak placenames, such as Wheeldon ( Wealhtun, Welshman's village) or Whale Pasture. to the latter is an area known as the Jarnett, which a friend of mine has suggested is derived from the Welsh word for cairn...
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Offline mikem

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2020, 11:42:58 pm »
Although they could also be related to:
Quote
The name "Weald" is derived from the Old English weald, meaning "forest" (cognate of German Wald, but unrelated to English "wood", which has a different origin).

S.O. Addy (again) in "A Glossary of Words used in the Neighbourhood of Sheffield" (1888):
Quote
WARK, sb. work. ' Are ta goin' to thy wark to-day ? ' ' To hell as like. '
CARL - however, is only mentioned as parching (drying) peas.
The earthwork near Hathersage, which appears on maps as Carls Wark, is pronounced Charles Wark.
Nearest W terms:
Quote
WELD, v. to manage. A Derbyshire word. A farmer living at Ashover, in Derbyshire, said to me, ' There's no farm I could ha' liked better if I could only ha' welded it.'
A.S. gewealdan [(v.), to rule. to wield in old English]
WELLY, adv. nearly.
WELSH, a foreign language ? ' He's talking Welsh!' 'That's Welsh !' means 'I don't understand you.'
https://archive.org/stream/glossaryofwordsu00addyuoft/glossaryofwordsu00addyuoft_djvu.txt

So several of the suggestions may just be the product of local pronunciation - following is from John Beck (1975):
http://cavescience2-cloud.bcra.org.uk/1_Transactions/ckt005.pdf
Quote
It has often been assumed that the pre-Moorwood Sough resurgence of the Waterfall Swallet stream was the Lower Entrance to Carlswark Cavern, but Short (1734) described the entrance, and the passages within, exactly as they are known today, except that the size of the entrance has been reduced to the present grovel by rubbish tipping_

Short's description runs as follows: "A little west of this is Charleswork, this has a Majestic Appearance, lies at the Foot of a very steep Rock, ninety three Yards High, and five Yards above the Level of the Brook, its Entry is six Yards high and eight wide, here you walk on for forty two Yards and a half, where you arrive at an unpassable deep stagnant Lake, this Cave reaches quite through the Mountains and opens into Eynedale, which is above half a Mile; by another of its Grottoes, it opens near Fowlow which is a Mile and a half, passing quite under Eyan church."
Suggesting it was old even then.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 12:03:08 am by mikem »

Offline mikem

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2020, 12:49:57 am »
Although Addy seems to make a few too many leaps of logic in "The Hall of Waltheof, Or, The Early Condition and Settlement of Hallamshire (1893):
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I must now turn over an earlier page, though I am going a little beyond my prescribed limits in describing a hill-fort which is situate on the Hathersage moors about a mile from the boundary of Hallamshire. The hill-fort known as Carl's Wark is so near to that boundary, and has such an important bearing on the subject with which we are dealing, that no apology seems needed for inserting an account of it.

As in other cases the builders of this hill-fort have made use of the defence afforded by a rocky summit with precipitous sides, and have supplemented the weaker parts of a natural fortification by massive walls. The area of ground enclosed by natural rocks and artificial walls is of considerable extent. Its mean length from east to west as taken from actual measurement is 450 feet, and its mean breadth is 200 feet. The northern and eastern sides of the hill-fort are very precipitous and show little sign of artificial work, nor for the purpose of fortification was such work necessary. But the southern and western sides are protected by rude walls built without mortar, and of immense age. Some of the stones in the southern wall, in which, as will be seen in the drawing, there is a gateway or opening about seven feet in breadth, are of Cyclopean size. They are from six to nine feet in length.[1] The walls which they form are not carefully-fitted polygonal masonry, but are built of great unhewn boulders fitted together without mortar and without any small stones in the interstices. But rude as the ancient masonry is these big stones have been fitted to each other with some care. The wall on the western boundary of the hill-fort is eighty-five feet in length, its height being from ten to twelve feet above the level of the ground outside the fort.

The western side of the fort was its most vulnerable part, and the section will show how the earth was thrown up within the fort against this side. The stones of which this western wall are formed are smaller in size than the stones wnich form the wall on the southern side. The average length of each stone in the western wall is about three-and-a-half feet, its depth or thickness one foot, and its width three feet, that being the width of the wall, which consists of one course of stones only. These stones also, like the stones in the southern wall, are fitted together without mortar and without smaller stones to fill up the interstices. A winding pathway goes down from the gateway or opening on the southern side, and on the eastern side is a narrow pathway leading down between the rocks. The eastern side has been strengthened by a wall built into a crevice in the rocks. Both the southern and eastern sides are strengthened by earth which has been thrown up. In some of the isolated boulders are cup-like markings which show curiously the action of the prevailing winds and rain. The walls are built of therough millstone grit which is found on the surrounding moors, and they are worn by the pitiless storms which on this high ground have beaten upon them for ages. In the last century Carl's Wark attracted the notice of Wilson the Sheffield antiquary. He speaks of the west end as being "walled with stones as large as strong gate stoops, some a ton apiece, and twenty or thirty yards long; the north side a steep perpendicular rock, and the south side and east end defended with large stones evidently laid to defend the passage up the hill. No engines now in being could move such great stones."[2]

Like the Acropolis of Tiryns Carl's Wark is a fortified place on a hill, and, as will be seen in the drawing above, there is no small resemblance between it and the ancient hill-forts of Greece.

Writing of the Cyclopean masonry of Greece Dr. Reber says: "Walls built of enormous boulders, unhewn, and roughly piled up without calculation, the larger interstices being filled with smaller stones, are of extreme age. Such masonry appeared to later generations to be the work of giants, of Cyclops, and hence a name which might more fittingly be changed to Pelasgic than to Poseidonic, as suggested by Gladstone. The walls of Tiryns are of such gigantic blocks—bulwarks mentioned by Homer and Hesiod, and admired in their ruins by Pausanias. They are built upon a ridge of rock."[3]

The Cyclops are first mentioned in the Odyssey as a race of one-eyed giants. "We came," says Odysseus, "to the land of the Cyclopes, a froward and a lawless folk, who trusting to the deathless gods plant not aught with their hands, neither plough: but, behold, all these things spring for them in plenty, unsown and untilled, wheat, and barley, and vines, which bear great clusters of the juice of the grape, and the rain of Zeus gives them increase. These have neither gatherings for council nor oracles of law, but they dwell in hollow caves on the crests of the high hills, and each one utters the law to his children and his wives, and they reck not one of another."[4]

In this interesting description Homer seems to have been thinking of hill tribes, or of a race of men who had not yet passed into the agricultural stage, and were without social organization. Such men, he tells us, "dwell in hollow caves on the crests of the high hills." About 1,600 feet to the northwest of Carl's Wark is a hill known as Higgar Torr, on the top of which are small caves into which sheep[5] often retreat for shelter. It is just possible that Higgar may be Yggr (with a genitive Yggjar), a name of Odin. The Old Norse uggr means terror, fear, and Grimm connects Yggr with the Latin Pavor, the god of fear. "Rock of Fear" would be a fit name for this dark and awful eminence.

Just as the Cyclops was a one-eyed giant so in Northern mythology Odin pawned his eye in the well of Mímir. And just as in Greece the great stone walls of the hill-fort were ascribed to the Cyclops, so in England such works, as I shall presently show, were ascribed to the one-eyed Odin. This brings us to the term "Carl's Wark," and its meaning. And first of all it is of great importance to remember that the word "wark" here means "fort,"[6] so that in the very name of the place we have proof that it was regarded in ancient times as a stronghold.

It is evident that the making of this fortification was attributed in early times to a being called Karl or Charles. It was not the work of churls or slaves—an explanation which would do violence to the rules of Old English grammar, to say nothing of any other objection. Grimm conjectured that the wagon or wain in Charles's Wain was that of Odin.[7] In the Norse mythology Odin was the wagon-man; the heaven was called the wagon hall, the wagon roof, the wagon road. From the seven bright stars in Ursa Major, which look so like a wagon, it may have been fabled that Odin threw down great stones upon the earth and built the walls. The heap of stones called the Apronfull of Stones formerly existing in Bradfield is evidence of a belief in this district of giants or giantesses scattering big stones upon the ground from their aprons.

Carl's Work or Charles Work[8] is also the name of a cavern in Middleton Dale in Derbyshire, and there is a cave called Odin's Mine at the foot of Mam Tor in Castleton in the same county. There is also a Charles Clough or Churl Clough on the Hallam moors.[9] From the names of these two caverns alone it would appear that Carl and Odin are synonyms. In Old Norse karl, in addition to its ordinary meaning of man, means an old man, and in this neighbourhood the Devil is popularly known as the Old Lad or the Old One. Carl's Wark then is The Old One's fort, otherwise Odin's fort; and the Norse Sagas represent Odin as an old man with one eye. Grimm has shown how the tales about Odin began to be attributed to the Frankish Charles.[10] Just as the one-eyed Cyclops, according to the ancient fable, built the great walls of the Greek hill-forts, so the one-eyed Odin was the fabulous builder of this strong hill-fort on the Hathersage moors. Its very name is a proof of its vast age. In "the dark backward and abysm of time," long before the dawn of English history, there dwelt upon these wild moors "a froward and lawless folk" who, in the words of Homer, planted not aught with their hands neither ploughed. According to Cæsar most of the Britons dwelling in the interior of the island did not sow wheat, but lived on milk and flesh, and were clad in skins.[11]
https://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/topic/4403-the-hall-of-waltheof/ [origin of the initial wikipedia quote]

(Yes jarnett could be a corruption of carnedd, but equally well may not be; & if gewealdan has come into relatively recent slang as weld, then Wheeldon could also be the "Place of the one who rules'".)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 01:07:34 am by mikem »

Offline yrammy

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2020, 08:55:56 am »
Thanks everyone - what have I started :-)

Offline mikem

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2020, 10:09:51 am »
Not sure there's any more to be said (unless you find something in an obscure article). As I mentioned above "T'owd Man's working" would get my vote for most likely source, as others all seem a bit fanciful.

Offline AR

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2020, 12:09:38 pm »
The stuff  linking Carl with Odin is IMO nothing but idle speculation by Victorian antiquarians. The Derbyshire miners certainly didn't consider T'Owd Man to be diabolic, instead he was an embodiment of the antiquity of their customary rights of free mining in the Peak  - a good read on this is Andy Wood's "The Politics of Social Conflict in the Peak District", which is apart from a couple of chapters on the theoretics of  the study of history, rather interesting.

However, I'm leaning more towards the idea of "Old Man's Work" as the likely derivation; although one of the references Jim cites is a Victorian antiquary who'd tried to create a glossary of Derbyshire dialect, another is a 1930s Youlgreave WI publication about local history which is more likely to be pulling on genuine usage from the village.

I'm not sure about the "wheel" element in Wheeldon coming from the same root as "wield", though somewhere I've got an article from the Gesithas journal about Old English smithing and its terminology, need to find that and see what that said about "weld" in the context of joining two pieces of iron.
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Offline mikem

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Re: Carlswark Cavern - Question - just curious
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2020, 12:57:17 pm »
No, I don't think Wheeldon comes from wield, but is just a possibility - weald in the sense of forest would be my guess.

This reckons weld is related to welled up (boiled / risen): http://www.websters1913.com/words/Weld

The joy of having so many different languages jumbled together into what we know as English...

 

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