Decline in Caving?

P

Peter Burgess

New member
The idea that we have experienced a decline in caving activity has been discussed before. The thread is so long, I can't be bothered to read it all. But, I am curious to know whether this is a British thing, or whether it is something that has happened abroad as well. Does anyone know? If caving is as popular as ever elsewhere, is there something we could learn from them?
 
Don't know, but caving is not a sport/activity that is going to attract huge amount of numbers in the first place, and taking/guiding young persons is tied up in red tape, basically covering your arse, so lot of cavers are not going to make the effort, and you can not really blame them, + I think todays society also plays a role in this as well, choice of TV stations available, computors and computor games, a lot of young people know nothing else and apart from swimming and football, which  obviously will  vary across the country, most other youth activities struggle for numbers. I have heard, and do not know if true, in france the school sports/activity curriculem covers the local area major activity, so in a caving region they would cover this and if you have ever been down pucelle it does seem to have children in it most days, although this only an observation based on the 2 times I have been down that way.
 
There seems to be an increase in university cavers, the numbers at the CHECC seminar were up to 191 this year, our clubs numbers have been up from 40 in 2004, 60 2005 to 80 in 2006, we've increased the numbers of trips from 7 to 10 (official, even more unofficial), and trip sizes up from 14 people last year to an average of 19 this year with over 25 on one of our first trips. Several other uni clubs have also had membership increases, CUCC, RUCC, SUCC etc.

Also we've increased our active cavers* as well as people interested in helping on the committee has gone from 4 to 10 and 8 of those only started caving this year. There are also a few more active members not on the committee as well.

*a lot of people turn up once or twice and don't come back, as is the way with university clubs
 
At risk of repeating the other thread, I think that if you looked in the 60's there were only really 4 outdoor activities, caving, climbing, hiking and cycling.  Now you can add scuba, canoeing, mountain biking, parascending, water skiing etc. etc., so the finite number of people doing "outdoor stuff" are spread more thinly between the greater number of activities.

Caving will come low down as it only seems to attract "blokes" (dont flame me, its observation not justification).... and young "blokes" want to do a mixed sex activity with social interaction that does not exist in caving.

Add to that buraecratic H&S nonesense and the odd newspaper sensation about a trapped caver.

Top it up with the committee/resolution/procedures/rules/forms/squabbling nonesense that goes on in some places (guess where I mean) that would put off any newbie who just wanted to go caving and I think you can get the answer.

 
mak said:
Peter Burgess said:
Sigh. I guess nobody's got an answer to the question I actually asked.
Click to expand...
try posting it on worldcaving.com > World Caving   :shrug:
Click to expand...

Yes, I guess UK cavers are too introverted and parochial to know or care what happens outside the village.  ;)

A Lurcal forum fer lurcal cavers.
 
I think you need to look at this another way. Has the number of diehards gone down, ie those individuals who don't cave for a couple of years and then give up but the ones in whom it becomes a way of life? Scuba diving has a very high drop out rate after 3 years. When I started caving I had two friends who used to come and one got to the level of doing something like Stoke Lane to Sump 2 which isn't your average tourist trip. shortly after he announced he had 'done' caving and never went again. With the available of good equipment it is possible to get to a high standard quickly, do the classic trips, and move on to another activity having 'done' the sport.  These are not the sort of people in the main who are going to be the diggers and surveyors of the future.

I started caving because I was interested in caves rather than the sporting side. I have taken both daughters and one seems to have been really bitten by the bug but how long she does it for is debatable. My wife caved for 15 years or more and still takes an interest and enjoys the company of cavers who are the most sociable bunch of activity enthusisasts I know.
 
I don't think that there has been a decline in caver numbers, people just aren't joining the established clubs anymore! Why that is, is another topic entirely. As has been mentioned above, the amount of people entering Uni clubs has increased dramatically, even geographically remote (from caves that is) clubs like Uni of Kent can boast 50 members.

Things seem to be going the way of climbing where people cave with a few friends without the hassle and need to form or join a club. They meet other people in the caving areas and thus expand their circle of friends. The only reason to join a club seems to be to get access to shared kit (1000m + of rope, although with the average personal disposable income is that really necessary?) and to get on expeditions (which most clubs will open to everyone anyway.)

So why do people think that numbers are declining? I think the same numbers are there, they just can't be seen by the traditional caver propping up the bar in his local.
 
If that were the case, the evidence of retail outlet sales and records of cave visits where kept (e.g. OFD?), would show no drop in activity. I have no way of knowing if these statistics give such an indication.
 
Were as the likes of c**tplaces is going from strength to strength, maybe its clubs in decline and not people visiting the underground?  :tease:
 
Am I right in thinking Darkplaces is effectively a web-based thingy? There are four 'groups' (in the loosest sense) that I am aware of that seem to be thriving, all of which have active and imaginitive websites. Darkplaces, Sub Brit, UKCaving, and WCMS. (Probably more but you can tell me about them if you like). Is there a clue here? Is it those who make imaginitive use of modern communication and publication that are doing OK? Those that carry on meeting down the pub, put out a paper newsletter twice a year, and which might have a small, static and often out of date website that are stagnating?
 
Seriously though, I recall the aftermath of the Lyme Bay Canoe Disaster as being the start of our new young membership declining. Prior to the inquiry reporting, a meeting never seemed to pass without a request to take Scouts, youth leaders, school groups etc. caving. Overnight the requests disappeared & with them most of the young new members which are the long term future of any club. It got to the point where meetings were no longer quorate on occasion.
Happily in the last couple of years we have started to get an influx of young (but not as young as previously) members again. This has been the result of a lot of effort promoting the club, which has thankfully paid off.
Not sure this is the whole story though, as in roughly the same period a lot of young new faces appeared at DCRO dos,  (seemingly to me) conincident with activity from the Uni Clubs, particularly SUSS.
Bare in mind this is very subjective & just based on my own thoughts & observations.
 
Peter Burgess said:
Am I right in thinking Darkplaces is effectively a web-based thingy? There are four 'groups' (in the loosest sense) that I am aware of that seem to be thriving, all of which have active and imaginitive websites. Darkplaces, Sub Brit, UKCaving, and WCMS. (Probably more but you can tell me about them if you like). Is there a clue here? Is it those who make imaginitive use of modern communication and publication that are doing OK? Those that carry on meeting down the pub, put out a paper newsletter twice a year, and which might have a small, static and often out of date website that are stagnating?
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm confusing cause and effect. :doubt:
 
I think part of what's happening is that these groups are making something visible, with the easy ability to post trip reports and photos.

The advantage Darkplaces has is cross interest, people like bunkers, cold war, drains; plenty have cross over to caves, mines. I'll embarrass 'drainrat' a hardcore drain explorer, still doing drains but also now a hardcore caver maybe partly down to DP but I dont know.
 
AndyF said:
Caving will come low down as it only seems to attract "blokes" (dont flame me, its observation not justification).... and young "blokes" want to do a mixed sex activity with social interaction that does not exist in caving.
Click to expand...

In university clubs the male/female ratio is close to 1:1 at the moment. I'd guess among those who take their caving slightly seriously it's more like 2:1 though.

This trend may or may not carry on through to non-university clubs. As already discussed, most of them don't seem to very good at recruiting ex-university cavers.

Anyway, there are a lot more girls (proportionally) who cave than play e.g. rugby, and there hasn't been a big drop in the number of rugby players.
 
Vance - if you think the "only" reason to join a decent caving club is to borrow a bit if rope, you are sadly misinformed.  If you don't join a proper club you cannot possibly understand the huge spectrum of richly rewarding experiences which caving has to offer.
 
c**tplaces said:
I think part of what's happening is that these groups are making something visible, with the easy ability to post trip reports and photos.

The advantage Darkplaces has is cross interest, people like bunkers, cold war, drains; plenty have cross over to caves, mines. I'll embarrass 'drainrat' a hardcore drain explorer, still doing drains but also now a hardcore caver maybe partly down to DP but I dont know.
Click to expand...

Ditto this.
It seems there is also an active hard-core in fringe interests - bunkers, urb-ex, drains etc.
That's where you'll find most 20-35 year olds.
And all online with the web as primary contact.

 
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