Decline in Caving?

[gus horsley]

Tony, I'm in a similar situation to you.  If you count my (extremely) sporadic trips nowadays I've been going underground for just over 40 years.  I can't do any demanding trips now due to a disability but feel I can still contribute something from my armchair (although there are many on this forum who would probably say different).  Right, I'm gonna get me coat before I become too mawkish....

 

[Hughie]

I wonder how many cavers would have retired if it wasn't for caving websites, or how many cavers who caved when they were younger but who gave it up as they acquired personal commitments but as a result of such websites keep in touch with the caving community and as a consequence come back into the sport?

Very few, I imagine. I know many cavers who continue caving regardless of the internet or websites. They are usually members of a club (though not all).

Besides, people have only been talking about a decline in caving since the internet became available to all and sundry (that's the impression I get, anyway). So is the internet responsible for a decline in caving?

This forum (to use an example) has 878 registered members - I reckon the caving population is actually at least 5 times greater than that. Somebody from the BCA insurance department could possibly enlighten us re numbers of insured cavers, and probably a good dollop more of uninsured cavers are active too.

Undoubtedly some people use forums/internet to stay in touch. Others will maintain contact through clubs etc.

 

[Cookie]

When I was membership secretary for my club, there was a significant number of rejoining members who had disappear off the scene 20 years previous to bring up a family.

How much that has to do with the Internet I don't know. I was membership sec. over five years ago before the Internet was so ubiquitous.


There are currently just over 4500 individuals in the BCA insurance scheme.

 

[paul]

In my opinion, although websites do accelerate the spread of information, most of those who really want to cave will find a way even if they live miles from the nearest cave and have no friends or acquaintances who are cavers.

If you feel you can't get underground that often nowadays, you can always help out in other ways related to caving: Regional Councils and other organisations always want help. And rescue teams can always do with more cavers or ex-cavers who are prepared to help in fund-collecting (he says with his treasurer's hat on!).

 

[Hughie]

There are currently just over 4500 individuals in the BCA insurance scheme

Thanks, Cookie. I thought it was someting like that.

 

[fi]

Over 15 years ago the talk in the Hunters was that there were no younger people joining the clubs (youngest members in the BEC and Wessex at that time were the likes of Jake, Tav etc who were all mid 20's) and that was when the Hunter's was full to bursting every Wednesday, Friday and Saturday night and definately pre-internet.

 

[darkplaces]

Problem is society is changing and not for the better. Thanks to things like insurance and duty of care and all the things 'some' people think are a good idea the nation is getting fat and lazy and scared to do anything remotely/looks like it might be dangerous, we have become a risk averse society. The need for insurance re-enforces that which is why I am against it... another topic in itself. Also people are fed up with paying out ALL the time. The working UK citizen is hyper taxed, just to drive to the cave costs £££ with the majority going to a government dedicated to making it more costly and wanting to track you to the cave and back and in a few years actually CHARGE you to do so! How many bus's go from your street to Priddy green that would allow a stinky caver + kit on them. (stinky on the way back). Why should young people go caving when they can blot out the stresses of education related debts with cheap 2 for 1 drinks. Knowing they will have to work till they drop as pensions wont cover any costs.

Bit gloomy innit, so lets encourage people who are interested and not bang on about membership of this and that and insurance and all that RUBBISH!

 

[tony from suffolk]

I wonder how many cavers would have retired if it wasn't for caving websites, or how many cavers who caved when they were younger but who gave it up as they acquired personal commitments but as a result of such websites keep in touch with the caving community and as a consequence come back into the sport?

Very few, I imagine. I know many cavers who continue caving regardless of the internet or websites. They are usually members of a club (though not all).

Besides, people have only been talking about a decline in caving since the internet became available to all and sundry (that's the impression I get, anyway). So is the internet responsible for a decline in caving?

This forum (to use an example) has 878 registered members - I reckon the caving population is actually at least 5 times greater than that. Somebody from the BCA insurance department could possibly enlighten us re numbers of insured cavers, and probably a good dollop more of uninsured cavers are active too.

Undoubtedly some people use forums/internet to stay in touch. Others will maintain contact through clubs etc.

A couple of points here; many cavers of my era (and possibly now too) weren't members of large clubs. In my active caving days there was a proliferation of smaller clubs, generally made up of a few keen individuals of similar age, perhaps school or youth-club mates. We avoided the bigger clubs because there was a feeling they were a bit "Establishment" and old-fashioned. Rebellious, we were!

As a consequence, we all met partners, got married, got more committing jobs and lost touch with each other and the caving world at a similar time.

With a larger club there's more continuity, a greater range of ages and more diverse personalities that help t oensure its survival and continued loyalty from its members.

The main reason people are now talking about the possible decline in caver numbers is because they've now got Forums with which to do so! Pre-internet  days, it would be impossible to engage in this type of discussion with such a large number of like-minded folk.

 

[whitelackington]

Problem is society is changing and not for the better. Thanks to things like insurance and duty of care and all the things 'some' people think are a good idea the nation is getting fat and lazy and scared to do anything remotely/looks like it might be dangerous, we have become a risk averse society. The need for insurance re-enforces that which is why I am against it... another topic in itself. Also people are fed up with paying out ALL the time. The working UK citizen is hyper taxed, just to drive to the cave costs £££ with the majority going to a government dedicated to making it more costly and wanting to track you to the cave and back and in a few years actually CHARGE you to do so! How many bus's go from your street to Priddy green that would allow a stinky caver + kit on them. (stinky on the way back). Why should young people go caving when they can blot out the stresses of education related debts with cheap 2 for 1 drinks. Knowing they will have to work till they drop as pensions wont cover any costs.

Bit gloomy innit, so lets encourage people who are interested and not bang on about membership of this and that and insurance and all that RUBBISH!

Quite right D.P.
Also on Mendip caves are closed @ the drop of a hat

 

[cap n chris]

.. and rusted/seized padlocks get changed at the drop of a hat. i.e. "at the drop of a hat" = active/functioning/lively caving scene.

 

[darkplaces]

.. and rusted/seized padlocks get changed at the drop of a hat. i.e. "at the drop of a hat" = active/functioning/lively caving scene.

Dont need padlocks when the entrance is designed to be entertaining to get though itself.... Sorry another topic....

Don't worry about a decline if one exists, I don't think it does I think the 'underground' world is just as active, its just done differently in a diversely different number of ways, and cant always be counted. What is this society's obsession with COUNTING and STATS and TARGETS and MONITORING! All rather pointless activities, most of the time. How many cavers in the country??? Who gives a t0$$.

 

[Pitlamp]

BCA did, when it set up its excellent insurance scheme.  In fact quite a lot of research was done.

As I've said before, us potholers have a lot to be grateful for to certain individuals who put a lot of time and effort into securing and then administering this cheap and convenient scheme.  Anyone who doesn't like it doesn't need to join.

 

[darkplaces]

Anyone who doesn't like it doesn't need to join.

Sadly for a number of places you have no choice but to join, they wont let you in till you have joined. It does put people off. I'm not knocking your club system, however its all sounding a bit Borg...

Don't forget the individuals, same faces doing all the work.

 

[Cookie]

I'm not knocking your club system, however its all sounding a bit Borg...

The insurance companies are the Borg. They are the system, they are the establishment. You can either roll with it and make the best of a bad job, or destroy yourself trying to defeat the system.

But come the revolution, insurance executives will be the first against my wall.

 

[shotlighter]

I'm not knocking your club system, however its all sounding a bit Borg...

The insurance companies are the Borg. They are the system, they are the establishment. You can either roll with it and make the best of a bad job, or destroy yourself trying to defeat the system.

But come the revolution, insurance executives will be the first against my wall.

GPMG? - oh sorry wrong thread!

 

[Slug]

GPMG? - oh sorry wrong thread!

Naah with that style of S.F mount, and its overall profile, I'd say more like an M1917 .30 cal.......or a Ma Deuce.


On a more serious note though, recent posts have highlighted just how the ole' innertent has played such a large role in either promoting caving to a wider , Younger cross section of like minded mad buggers, or re-invigorated a lot of Us creaky old gits...Numbers go up and down , they always have done, and, I expect , they always will do

 

[ditzy 24//7]

heya c**tplaces so then why is it that you are saying thst it is decliying caveing numbers but then on thr other hand you are stopping people under the age of 18 regestering with c**tplaces so they cant get information that they requier. and baning members who havent done much wrong and banning them for the most stupid reasons.

 

[darkplaces]

heya c**tplaces so then why is it that you are saying thst it is decliying caveing numbers but then on thr other hand you are stopping people under the age of 18 regestering with c**tplaces so they cant get information that they requier. and baning members who havent done much wrong and banning them for the most stupid reasons.

This is a private matter, I have reported this post to the web master.

 

[Known by None]

as there is something magnetic about risk and comradery

I've always been impressed with the strong sense of community that cavers have. I guess UrbEx is the same. There no quicker way to build friendships then confront and overcome danger together.

What from the inside is cameraderie and community looks like cliquery if you're on the outside of it. I'm not criticising, it's just a fact of life. It takes effort on both sides for someone to be able to cross the boundary.

I completely agree, although sometimes the boundary can seem almost insurmountable. Councils, committees and rules and regulations can all seem rather stifling if all you want to do is try out caving and go underground with no strings and politics. While I see that many clubs welcome prospective novice members and are happy to spend time with them, I always had the impression (rightly or wrongly) that often clubs were for hardcore super adrenalin types with lots of health and safety isms, so it was nice to be able to post on a place that had no mental/stereotypical barriers and somewhere I felt that had no expectations or requirements other than to turn up and be myself. I wasn't born inheriting a lust for going underground, it was nurtured in a very short time by the enthuisiasm of others and then ultimately myself, I didn't know I would like it until I tried it and it was a lot easier to try it via a forum without an agenda and in a relaxed manner. I am not knocking clubs, I am hoping to join one simply because I met a few of the people in one and found them to be normal, fun and welcoming. Whether I would have found the time or even been that motivated to try caving without somewhere like Darkplaces, I am not sure, now I am hooked and want to put as much time as I can into it. I don't know if caving is on the decline, if it is then I can only guess from my own experiences that it is because it seems like something you can't "try before you buy". I'm 27 and hope to make this a lifelong pursuit, even if my life is considerably shortened as a result (of my own actions- all in jest), it beats hangovers and happy hours.

 

[Pitlamp]

Darkplaces and Cookie - you are both wrong.  It's not the fault of insurance executives; they are merely providing a service which we can decide to use or not.  The real problem is that legal professionals, paid extortionate amounts of remuneration, are able to extort large amounts of money out of you.  An insurer offers you a way to prevent that in many circumstances.

At the moment I am not an officer of the 4 clubs to which I belong - but I don't want the officers of these excellent clubs to have to carry the risk of some filth trying to take their houses off them.  If, for a few quid a year, I can remove this risk from those volunters who work hard to keep the show on the road then I'm grateful for the opportunity.  BCA has done an excellent job of setting up the insurance scheme in my view.

If you're going to make a stance against the litigation culture - pick the right targets.