Decline in Caving?

badger

Active member
peter I did read your question, and think answered to my knowledge, which was i dont know, secondly i also went on to say that i had been told, rightly or wrongly, that in caving areas of france they run caving as part of the curriculem, which if true the french may not have a decline in numbers
 
A

andymorgan

Guest
Pitlamp said:
Vance - if you think the "only" reason to join a decent caving club is to borrow a bit if rope, you are sadly misinformed.  If you don't join a proper club you cannot possibly understand the huge spectrum of richly rewarding experiences which caving has to offer.

Unfortunately a lot of people do think just that; and even more typically, just become members for the insurance card.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Perhaps if more people pondered on what they can give to a club, as well as what they can get from it, they would be better rewarded.  I'm in four clubs, each for different reasons - and it's great!
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
Pitlamp said:
Perhaps if more people pondered on what they can give to a club, as well as what they can get from it, they would be better rewarded.

Isn't that what JFK said?
 

Ed W

Member
I suspect that this will become a bit of an essay, but hopefully it may be of interest to others.  I have no concrete figures on numbers caving, here or abroad, but I may be able to pass on a little of what I have noticed in the past 20 years or so.

Are there less people caving in general in the UK?  I am pretty sure this is the case, a good example is how crowded places like Priddy Green used to be compared to now.  Is it a dramatic drop?  I am not sure that it is, and I am also sure that Andy F is right when he says that there is now a much wider selection of activities for people to choose from is partly the reason for this.  Also in an image obsessed society caving is hardly the the sexiest of outdoor sports (no chance to strut your funky stuff in front of amazed mere mortals due to the rock above you somewhat spoiling the view).

I also agree with mrdoc that the number of diehards is not decreasing much, i.e. we are getting fewer cavers in, but people seem to be staying on the scene longer.  I am not sure I totally agree with Scutchamer or Vance.  My own club's membership has been almost exactly constant for about the last 15 years.  Uni clubs becoming more popular?  I think using CHECC as a measure is not a particularly brilliant measure, as it has not been going all that long (six or seven years?).  Also individual uni clubs do wax an wane.  My uni club went from 12 members in 1994 (and almost dissolution) to 30 odd in 95 and about 60 odd in 96, so this sort of growth has happened in the past, this growth was almost entirely due to a new injection of members in 95 which raised enthusiasm.  Interestingly these people were mature students who were members of established clubs!  I also totally disagree with Rich, established clubs are very good at recruiting uni cavers.  I would say that my club's membership is about 85% made up of ex-uni cavers, many of whom decided to join after staying at our hut.  This is an effect that continues to this day, several joining at our last committee meeting (April).

As to abroad?  Well I think that Peter is a little harsh saying that UK cavers are too introverted to care about what happens beyond our own shores.  Just look at any copy of Descent at the amount of foreign expeditions going on, many of which are actively promoting caving as a sport/science in country.  As to decline?  I am sure this varies from country to country but based ona reasonable experience of countries (Europe, Americas and Asia) I seem to get the impression that in all of the countries I have visited interest in caves is increasing.

Finally I think that the comments by Pitlamp and Andy Morgan are very important.  Club membership is not about taking advantage of club facilities.  The club is far more than the sum of its parts, and as an individual I would say that you get out as much as you put in.  It does seem fashionable to deride the established clubs on the web, however I for one think that UK (and probably world) caving would be all the poorer if they were replaced by "groups of individuals".

Ed
 

Cookie

New member
langcliffe said:
Pitlamp said:
Perhaps if more people pondered on what they can give to a club, as well as what they can get from it, they would be better rewarded.

Isn't that what JFK said?

As near as damit, and wise words there are.  :clap:
 
D

Dep

Guest
Cookie said:
langcliffe said:
Pitlamp said:
Perhaps if more people pondered on what they can give to a club, as well as what they can get from it, they would be better rewarded.

Isn't that what JFK said?

As near as damit, and wise words there are.  :clap:

Spooky, I was about to add this as a response to an earlier post above regarding the need to contribute back to a club making it more than the mere sum of parts.

To paraphrase JFK:
"Ask not what your club [country] can do for you but rather what you can do for your club [country]"
 

anfieldman

New member
andymorgan said:
Pitlamp said:
Vance - if you think the "only" reason to join a decent caving club is to borrow a bit if rope, you are sadly misinformed.  If you don't join a proper club you cannot possibly understand the huge spectrum of richly rewarding experiences which caving has to offer.

Unfortunately a lot of people do think just that; and even more typically, just become members for the insurance card.

And sometimes they also want to 'cherry pick' the really exciting trips arranged and don't bother coming along to any others. Some regulars of the club are then left out if small groups only are part of the access conditions.
When I first started caving about 2 years ago I was introduced by my fiancee and her dad. I obviously enjoyed it otherwise I would not be typing this now but joining a club and getting to know everyone has been the best part of something I will continue to do as long as I am able.
Each to their own though. If people want to cave on their own or outside of a club then fine but I personally think they are missing out on some great times and making friends for life.
 
 

whitelackington

New member
I am a member of three clubs,
I love clubs.
Yes you can enjoy helping, organizing and bringing new people on, it is not just about what you personally can get out of a club but definitely also what you can contribute. :beer:
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
whitelackington said:
I am a member of three clubs,
I love clubs.
Yes you can enjoy helping, organizing and bringing new people on, it is not just about what you personally can get out of a club but definitely also what you can contribute. :beer:

8)
 
whitelackington said:
I am a member of three clubs,
I love clubs.
Yes you can enjoy helping, organizing and bringing new people on, it is not just about what you personally can get out of a club but definitely also what you can contribute. :beer:
8) 8)
 
D

Dep

Guest
whitelackington said:
I am a member of three clubs,
I love clubs.
Yes you can enjoy helping, organizing and bringing new people on, it is not just about what you personally can get out of a club but definitely also what you can contribute. :beer:
8) 8) 8)
 
I am pretty new to caving and the only reason I got into it in the first place was because of Darkplaces- originally the Urb-ex was what intrigued me and then I had my scope broadened to caving. I originally had no interest in clubs, the idea of them often conjured up images of selectively closed, elitist and often clicky groups with all the politics and rigmarole that I tend to find off-putting, however my opinions were completely changed just by meeting and mixing with some of the people in these clubs and as a result I am going to join one. Going underground to me, wasn't something I could just go and try on my own to see if I liked it, nor did I want to pay up and join a club when I was unsure if I was even going to like it or even have time for it, and so Darkplaces offered a new and easy way to get into something that (at least from my limited experience) can seem daunting to many. Now I am addicted and while I want to (and will) get involved with a club, Darkplaces will always be the place for the majority of my energy, as there is something magnetic about risk and comradery; extreme socialising- at least that is my take on it.
 

Cookie

New member
Known by None said:
as there is something magnetic about risk and comradery

I've always been impressed with the strong sense of community that cavers have. I guess UrbEx is the same. There no quicker way to build friendships then confront and overcome danger together.
 
Cookie said:
Known by None said:
as there is something magnetic about risk and comradery

I've always been impressed with the strong sense of community that cavers have. I guess UrbEx is the same. There no quicker way to build friendships then confront and overcome danger together.

Agreed, my main draw was wanting to get involved and to meet new people, in the relatively short time I have been doing it I have been encouraged and gently prompted and as a result I look back to all the major reservations I originally had about caving and going underground and wonder what all the fuss was about. While the sense of danger and the element of risk is always going to be there, I am learning to enjoy it and do something positive about it.

-I think I met you last Sunday actually.... I was one of the guys who nearly got decked by cows outside Cuckoo Cleeves.
 

kay

Well-known member
Cookie said:
Known by None said:
as there is something magnetic about risk and comradery

I've always been impressed with the strong sense of community that cavers have. I guess UrbEx is the same. There no quicker way to build friendships then confront and overcome danger together.

What from the inside is cameraderie and community looks like cliquery if you're on the outside of it. I'm not criticising, it's just a fact of life. It takes effort on both sides for someone to be able to cross the boundary.
 

Slug

Member
Cookie said:
langcliffe said:
Pitlamp said:
Perhaps if more people pondered on what they can give to a club, as well as what they can get from it, they would be better rewarded.

Isn't that what JFK said?

As near as damit, and wise words there are.  :clap:

/quote]


Yes but lets not forget, J.F.K. was a Physically sick, Drug Ravaged Womanizer, with a " Questionable " recollection of His Military Service.. Who did deals with, then double crossed the Mafia............. and the Son of a Gunrunning Bootlegger.
....and Whats worse..... A POLITITIAN :eek:....  I could forgive Him the rest, but NOT THAT
 

tony from suffolk

Well-known member
Although not in the position to answer the original question, I wonder how many cavers would have retired if it wasn't for caving websites, or how many cavers who caved when they were younger but who gave it up as they acquired personal commitments but as a result of such websites keep in touch with the caving community and as a consequence come back into the sport?

I think if you've previously been interested in caving it must be an unusual individual who to gives up all interest in the sport.

Before the advent of the internet, unless you carried on subscribing to "Descent", lived in a caving area or knew someone who was still a keen caver then it was difficult to keep in touch. I don't think I'm unusual in being in a previous life a very keen caver for a number of years but whose desire to go caving again has been ignited by this website.

Surprisingly, my avatar isn't actually a picture of me, and I'm contemplating venturing underground again. None of my old pals are still caving but I'm confident if I asked one of the Mendip contingent on here if they would be prepared to take an old duffer like me for a quick blast down Swildon's I'd get a positive response (form an orderly queue..) ;)

I'd be interested to know how many other folk on here are in a similar situation as myself? Perhaps we could run an "Old Farts" trip?
 

anfieldman

New member
tony from suffolk said:
I'd be interested to know how many other folk on here are in a similar situation as myself? Perhaps we could run an "Old Farts" trip?

Peter? ;)



It's just a joke! Don't be so sensitive.
 
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