Deepest frog in England!

PeteHall

PeteHall

Moderator
Reached the terminal sump in Charterhouse (England's deepest cave  ;) ) on Saturday, to find a fully grown, healthy looking frog  sitting by the sump pool! :eek:

I can't imagine that it would have survived getting washed through the whole cave, even if the stream flowed that way (which it doesn't), so I can only assume that it grew there.

How on Earth did it get enough to eat to grow to that size, and how long must it have been there?
 
tdobson

tdobson

Member
I found a healthy looking toad or frog very near East Canal in Giants Hole, Peak District last year.

I had many of the same questions you did.
 
pwhole

pwhole

Well-known member
I found a toad in the terminal sump of an old mine years ago, and also couldn't work out how it had got there - it was still there swimming a month later, but a month after that it had died. I have no idea if they can climb vertically up rock - or frogs for that matter. I've found several frogs around and about in relatively dry caves and mines, but usually nearer the surface. They like the bottom of shafts as there's always a supply of beetles falling down them.
 

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C

CavefestUK

Member
I remember a trip in St Cotherstone and we saved 8 ir so frogs. I remember seeing one at sump 1 in Swildons once, but I reckon that your frog Pete is a pretty good contender for deepest frog
 
B

Benfool

Member
I found a live frog at the end of Main Rising - the deepest part of  the Peak-Speedwell system. That cant be far off the depth of Charterhouse!

B
 
PeteHall

PeteHall

Moderator
Badlad said:
Out of interest, how deep is England's deepest cave then?
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Charterhouse is 220m to the sump, which I think is the deepest dry cave in England. If you count the underwater stuff, it's not actually the deepest  :-[
 
PeteHall

PeteHall

Moderator
To save going off on too much of a tangent, there has been some discussion of Deepest Cave in England here: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=26655.0

Back to the frog. Presumably, it's been eating bits of organic stuff washed in (though I did think that frogs were carnivorous), which it must find by smell. Sitting very still and conserving energy all the time between?

Based on a google search, some frog species can live up to 40 years, with predation and loss of habitat often reducing lifetimes. It seems reasonable that in a cool cave environment, with 100% humidity and no predation, a frog might well exceed the usual lifetime, assuming it managed to find enough food to maintain its sedentary lifestyle.

According to the online log (which may or may not be accurate), there were a few trips to the terminal sump in 2015, but nobody has been since. I certainly don't remember seeing a frog there in 2015, so it's probably fair to assume it's grown to its current size in under 5 years.

I'm going to have to check up on it in another 5 years or so  :LOL:

 
M

mikem

Well-known member
It's fair to say that charterhouse is the deepest from the nearest (human-sized) entrance...
 
Leclused

Leclused

Active member
I think that the frog was washed in and then travelled around in the cave. Could it be that the frog came in from the other side of the sump.

But if the frog grew up there then  the eggs should have been washed in in some way and the transformation from tadpole to frog should have been happening in the sump I presume.

Imho the frog ended up in (relative recently) one way or another in the sump  and will die shortly from starvation
 
PeteHall

PeteHall

Moderator
Leclused said:
I think that the frog was washed in and then travelled around in the cave.
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In most caves, this is what I would think, but I can't imagine how it got there without being smashed to pieces on the way...

Could it be that the frog came in from the other side of the sump.
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Unless it swam upstream underwater for several(?) kilometres, then not likely. Unless the sump is short and there is a nice gentle cave waiting to be found the other side  ;)


Imho the frog ended up in (relative recently) one way or another in the sump  and will die shortly from starvation
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Probably, I just don't see how it could have survived the journey, considering the stream through the cave does not flow that way.

Unless it was flushed down the streamway and then flushed back up into this section as the cave flooded?  :confused:

Either way, I'll check up on it next time I visit and see if its dead yet (or gone).
 
Alex

Alex

Well-known member
Seen a few at the bottom of Lost Johns, just before ground sheet junction. Frogs can certainly survive long falls.
 
tomferry

tomferry

Well-known member
Will the frog go completely blind ?

Reading the story above that it was their a month later and then next time it had died makes me wonder if this is the case , I no some animals adapt other senses to over come total darkness and evolve feelers for example if they do live in the caves in total darkness maybe it?s a different species to the usual one in the garden pond . I suspect in a flooded mine shaft that is not capped it will be a normal frog as it has the day light ?
 
langcliffe

langcliffe

Well-known member
We spotted one on our way down Swinsto last Wednesday sitting on a tiny ledge a couple of metre above the floor by the bolts at the head of Spout Pitch. It's an interesting place, as it is well away from the main stream. It was still there when we passed the same spot on a trip through from Turbary on Saturday.
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Down and beyond said:
Will the frog go completely blind ?
Click to expand...

Unlikely, I'd have thought. Complete loss of the use of an organ (becoming "vestigial") is more an evolutionary thing over a long period. Mind you, it'd probably blink a bit if you brought it out to the sunshine again.

I found on near the end of the Marble Steps Branch in Keld Head; if that one came upstream it'd have to have swum almost three quarters of a mile. More likely it met its doom in Marble Steps Pot, which is probably rather less of a swim (and would be helped by the current, in flood).

 
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mikem

Well-known member
We get numerous healthy frogs, toads & newts at the base of a 7m shaft (& not so well off rabbits), but they have several other routes that they can fit through to get there. The amphibians can also climb impressively steep walls. Another shaft elsewhere has had newts living at the base of it for at least 10 years, with no sign of any pools where they can breed. Both are open to the surface though.
 
pwhole

pwhole

Well-known member
When we dug out the Son of Longcliffe shaft (9m deep), we found frogs already in there, though they would have easily been able to worm their way through backfill in the old adit entrance to get in. But that means they were willingly choosing to be in the dark, which seems odd. Obviously the beetles couldn't start falling down the shaft until we'd emptied it, but there are small flies on one wall in there, and perhaps they also breed in the cave? As this whole passage is only a few metres underground (albeit halfway up a very steep hill with no natural water flowing inside) it's possible its been an undisturbed amphibian habitat for hundreds of years, especially if they know all the tiny entrances that we could never fit through.
 
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