I was surprised to find out (Trip Reports: The Mistral) that the number of cavers operating in the UK has declined over the past thirty years or so. Considering that participation in other sports is on the increase, does anyone have any ideas why caving has bucked the trend?

Been a rather hot potatoe in the past this one...

http://ukcaving.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=1409&highlight=decline

gus horsley said:

I was surprised to find out (Trip Reports: The Mistral) that the number of cavers operating in the UK has declined over the past thirty years or so. Considering that participation in other sports is on the increase, does anyone have any ideas why caving has bucked the trend?

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Part of the answer is in your question, Gus. Given that people have a much wider range of activities in which to participate, it is hardly surprising that less time overall is dedicated to one of them.

It is also the case that some activities demand more of the particpants than others. Cave exploration as opposed to just sport caving, demands vast quantities of time and effort - just ask any dedicated cave digger. The ephemeral "sporty type" will not invest that much in just one activity.

[quote="graham]
Given that people have a much wider range of activities in which to participate, it is hardly surprising that less time overall is dedicated to one of them.

It is also the case that some activities demand more of the particpants than others. Cave exploration as opposed to just sport caving, demands vast quantities of time and effort - just ask any dedicated cave digger. The ephemeral "sporty type" will not invest that much in just one activity.[/quote]

I agree with the second paragraph but from my own experience I have always tended to alternate between bouts of digging etc and sporting trips. Your first part of the reply I'm not so sure about. I agree that people participate in a wider range of activities but that still doesn't explain why caving should be losing out to, say, climbing.

Maybe caving isn't as fashionable as it once was (if it was ever fashionable to begin with).

I'm probably not qualified to give an answer myself as I seem to have mostly been a solo entity on the periphery of the main caving regions: Pembrokeshire, Anglesey, Cornwall (and Halifax when I was younger but that doesn't count).

gus horsley said:

I was surprised to find out (Trip Reports: The Mistral) that the number of cavers operating in the UK has declined over the past thirty years or so. Considering that participation in other sports is on the increase, does anyone have any ideas why caving has bucked the trend?

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The real question is does ithe drop in numbers matter? Why does it matter if there are fewer cavers? It's good for conservation for one thing! As long as one can find a few people to cave with, then I don't think a drop in numbers too important.

I think the main reasons for the drop are
a) The HSE type problems at University clubs failing to feed new blood in.
b) Lack of social mix in clubs, other sports have a better balance of sexes
c) Its too tough for todays layabout youth :shock: (duck)

What is noticable is todays cavers are acheiving more in terms of expeditions, diving and exploration, due to higher skill levels, easier transport and improved equipment.

I can only think of one drawback at the moment - funding bodies will be more reluctant to put money into a declining sport as the demand for it is declining. Probably better to go for funding from conservation bodies rather than from sports bodies. A conservation body isn't going to be bothered that nobody goes caving, they will just want to see bats, or geology, or old mines protected.

AndyF said:

The real question is does ithe drop in numbers matter? Why does it matter if there are fewer cavers? It's good for conservation for one thing! As long as one can find a few people to cave with, then I don't think a drop in numbers too important.

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Personally, I like empty caves. It was only ten years ago that I used to find myself having to go down the more popular systems at 8:00 am in order to avoid becoming embroiled with other parties. These days, one is unlucky if someone else is caving in the same dale.

However, the caving world does require a certain level of activity if it is to support the equipment suppliers, magazine publishers, etc. Without sufficient numbers, equipment prices will go up through lack of competition and volume of business, and the number of outlets will fall.

susie said:

AndyF said:

The real question is does ithe drop in numbers matter? Why does it matter if there are fewer cavers? It's good for conservation for one thing! As long as one can find a few people to cave with, then I don't think a drop in numbers too important.

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However, the caving world does require a certain level of activity if it is to support the equipment suppliers, magazine publishers, etc. Without sufficient numbers, equipment prices will go up through lack of competition and volume of business, and the number of outlets will fall.

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I don't know if caving decline applies worldwide, but I guess there will always be enough to justify a couple of manufacturers/outlets. In fact, those numbers have increased over the last few years I think overall.

New product lines are still appearing like Meander Oversuits and Mammut Caving rope (and of course Epik ). Worth noting that most cavers in the US get their stuff mail order, as do cavers in many of the other colonies.

Peter Burgess said:

I can only think of one drawback at the moment - funding bodies will be more reluctant to put money into a declining sport as the demand for it is declining. Probably better to go for funding from conservation bodies rather than from sports bodies. A conservation body isn't going to be bothered that nobody goes caving, they will just want to see bats, or geology, or old mines protected.

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At first sight it would seem a disadvantage that we lose funding, but read the latest issue of Descent and I think most people will see it as a massive advantage. Put into very simplistic language, if any body (as opposed to anybody) puts money into British caving they will expect a say in how British caving is run. Any members of the British Canoe Union out there will be aware of how much beaurocratic bullshit you get involved with in order to keep Government funding.

And as for going for money from conservation bodies, we need to be careful there, because the easiest way to protect a cave or mine is to keep people out!

gus horsley said:

I was surprised to find out (Trip Reports: The Mistral) that the number of cavers operating in the UK has declined over the past thirty years or so. Considering that participation in other sports is on the increase, does anyone have any ideas why caving has bucked the trend?

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Is participation in other sports on the increase? I thought that it was obesity and sitting in front of a computer on the internet that was on the increase? With schools flogging off their playing fields for housing I was under the impression it was on the decline but I'd be interested if anyone has any figures.

AndyF said:

New product lines are still appearing like Meander Oversuits and Mammut Caving rope (and of course Epik ). Worth noting that most cavers in the US get their stuff mail order, as do cavers in many of the other colonies.

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By caving suppliers, I was primarily referring to retail outlets. I agree that one can buy by mail order, but personally, I prefer to view the options, and discuss their relative merits with the retailer before making a purchasing decision.

I must admit that it is not a facility that I take advantage of that often. I use a Petzl Stop (don't tell Sparrow), ascenders, and Avanti sit harness - all bought in about 1984.

Susie, are you happy using vertical gear which is 22+ years old?

I've noticed two things happening over my lifetime

a) greater consumerism in sport (as in eveything else)- eg, it's no longer the done thing to go rambling in your old clothes, you need a whole level of hi-tech gear. Look at what today's anglers or golfers expect to spend. And when anyone talks about 'encouraging people to keep fit', what they mean is 'subsidising gym membership'. If it doesn't make money for someone, it's not a sport.

b) people are less willing to put time into anything (or have more things competing for their time) - so - half hour at the gym rather than a 3 hour walk, for example. And don't let's risk the weather letting us down - let's go to the climbing wall instead.

Caving doesn't have a vast range of sexy clothing to acquire, or the latest trend in fashionable oversuits (and even if it did, no-one would ever know you were wearing it under that layer of mud). You can't do caving quickly, an hour after work on a Friday night before going out for the evening. And there's no equivalent of a climbing wall or an indoor sports pitch. So it doesn't have a chance.

Our club's numbers have fluctuated over the years, but I wouldn't say the numbers are in decline. Are there fewer clubs about? Are there more armchair cavers in clubs? Do the active members go away less frequently? Are there fewer non-club cavers? Was the past perception of higher numbers due to more outdoor pursuit activities - scouts, venture units, etc - rather than more 'real' cavers?

Is the decline a perception or a measured fact?

c) Its too tough for todays layabout youth (duck)

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Ha, my first instinct is to disagree, and put up a fight for todays youth (me being one of them i still like to think!), but then i think you're probably right.

i don't know as it's too tough, more that it's too committing. It's not like climbing where you can pop to an indoor wall for an hour at night, with easily hired gear and readily avaliable instruction, it needs time, people and patience. Its the same with its rewards, there's no instant buzz like flying off a big kicker on a mountain bike, and no abvious target, of amazing view, like mountaineering. Its a tough, physical sport that is very hard to get access to, you need to be fairly proficient in SRT to get down any but the simplest pitches, and essentially, you need to be well versed in the nesesarry skills to take on the risks it involves. It's not really a part time hobby thats easy to try, and thats maybe why numbers are declining.

Not that i think declining numbers are an essentially bad thing though.

tt.

p.s susie- that gears nearly as old as me!?!

tubby two said:

c) Its too tough for todays layabout youth (duck)

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Ha, my first instinct is to disagree, and put up a fight for todays youth (me being one of them i still like to think!), but then i think you're probably right.

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I'd probably also add

d) There isn't enough of the opposite sex to attract todays hormone driven youth, even the promise of joining the "mile under club" doesn't seen to work Let's face it, you never look "cool" when caving...

emgee said:

Is participation in other sports on the increase? I thought that it was obesity and sitting in front of a computer on the internet that was on the increase? With schools flogging off their playing fields for housing I was under the impression it was on the decline but I'd be interested if anyone has any figures.

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I can't quote any figures but I'm pretty certain the numbers of people going climbing is on the increase, or at least climbing walls are recording more participants. I also understand that women's football is one of the fastest-growing sports at present. Got to go home now so I'll probably chip something in tomorrow when I'm bored at work again...

Ha, my first instinct is to disagree, and put up a fight for todays youth (me being one of them i still like to think!), but then i think you're probably right.

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Depends how you define 'youth' - anything less than 20 I would say and I would agree with AndyF, it is too tough for the youth of today - a fair portion think that being active involves hand movement (no rude thoughts now please) changing channels and watching mind-numbing crap on tv or playing those computer game things where they think they are some kind of super-hero shooting the crap out of other people..

Not that i think declining numbers are an essentially bad thing though.

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Others have said similar in this post - in some ways its not a bad thing, less people in the way no spaghetti on pitches, helps in conservation sense. But the less cavers there are the less of a voice we have in access issues, the lesser the numbers the less people know about it or understand it or have the chance to sample it - I've taken about 7 people from work caving plus a reasonable number of other novices over the years..

Are there fewer clubs about? Are there more armchair cavers in clubs?

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Hard to say about club numbers - maybe someone has the answer, perhaps there are less uni-clubs about which was always a good source of new cavers..?
There are probably more armchair cavers about now than there used to be as the caving population ages and less and less fresh blood takes up the sport.

a) greater consumerism in sport (as in eveything else)

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True, funding is generally given to sport that can be on show, provides good spectator ratings so that anyone providing money gets advertising.. Sports funding is mostly given to 'competetive sports' - as that is obviously a more deserving sector of sport :?

Let's face it, you never look "cool" when caving...

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True, but how many people have taken an interest in what you're doing/where you're going etc when you've been dressed up in all that fancy gear. I've encountered a fair number of curious members of the public over the years!

cap 'n chris said:

Susie, are you happy using vertical gear which is 22+ years old?

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If you mean "happy" as in "content with one's lot", then the answer is: yes.

If you mean "happy" as in "lucky" or "fortunate", then the answer is: not particularly.

I did replace the friction bobbin on the Stop earler this year, but the jury is still out as to whether it was a good idea or an unjustifiable extravagance.

I started caving in my late teens in the 1970s when young people were well represented in the Mendip club scene. I don't suppose I would have been so keen to spend my weekends at the Belfry with a group of 30 somethings, and I don't suppose I would have had half as much fun, or made so many good friends. It seems to me that once the 'critical mass' of young people is lost in a club it is very hard to rebuild it.

Is the number of cavers declining? Based on my observations it seems to me that we have had a significant decline since the mid 90s but numbers are now rising again. And there is one reason why numbers are rising - because of a surge of interest in caving by women. Back in the 70s barely one in ten cavers were female but today I would guess that half of new cavers are women. I base this figure on meeting and talking with university clubs, on the membership applications for our own club in Cheddar, and on the trainees attending various courses I have run. The future's bright - the future's female!