Decline in Caver Numbers

[cap n chris]

... about time too. I took up caving to meet women. Didn't meet any. Still go caving.

 

[Mr Fell]

I know that one or two of the longer established clubs have been very concerned that the average age of there memberships has been rising rather alarmigly - with few young folk wanting to join. I think Andy is right - we will have to encourage a wider range of people to become interested to stop numbers falling too much. I would say it is not just women that need to be brought in, but also other groups that have traditionally not been all that well represented amongst our number as well.

 

[Les W]

I think Andy is right - we will have to encourage a wider range of people to become interested to stop numbers falling too much. I would say it is not just women that need to be brought in, but also other groups that have traditionally not been all that well represented amongst our number as well.

That looks suspiciously like an equity statement

You're not chasing a government grant are you or are you a closet "UK Sport" representative. :shock:

 

[AndyF]

It's never occured to me before the numbers from ethnic minorities that one see in outdoor sports in the UK, (ie. almost none). I've no idea why that is.... these groups are well represented in more conventional sports eg. footie, cricket etc.

Is there a perception that mountaineering and hiking are for white middle class Englishmen, there is a bit of a leftover of that from history...

 

[graham]

It's never occured to me before the numbers from ethnic minorities that one see in outdoor sports in the UK, (ie. almost none). I've no idea why that is.... these groups are well represented in more conventional sports eg. footie, cricket etc.

Is there a perception that mountaineering and hiking are for white middle class Englishmen, there is a bit of a leftover of that from history...

Most ethnic minority populations are found in cities, well away from the caves & the crags.

 

[Stu]

It's never occured to me before the numbers from ethnic minorities that one see in outdoor sports in the UK, (ie. almost none). I've no idea why that is.... these groups are well represented in more conventional sports eg. footie, cricket etc.

Is there a perception that mountaineering and hiking are for white middle class Englishmen, there is a bit of a leftover of that from history...

Going to go out on a limb on this particular issue...

I would have thought the demographic for ethnic minorities in terms of location, would centre around cities and suburbs; this may have an impact on uptake. There are probably just as many white people from these areas not taking up caving/mountaineering.

As regards the OP, I personally feel that one major drawback for caving is its lack of glamour and/or photogenic role models.
Climbing is becoming almost mainstream, what with the advent of indoor climbing walls. It's sold as a sexy/funky/counter culture (TM - just look at Fat Face clothing - Steve McClure) type activity. How the hell do we compete with that?

 

[AndyF]

It's never occured to me before the numbers from ethnic minorities that one see in outdoor sports in the UK, (ie. almost none). I've no idea why that is.... these groups are well represented in more conventional sports eg. footie, cricket etc.

Is there a perception that mountaineering and hiking are for white middle class Englishmen, there is a bit of a leftover of that from history...

Most ethnic minority populations are found in cities, well away from the caves & the crags.

I don't think thats really a likely reason, look at the numbers of climbers from London. Many of the first climbers saw it as an escape from the city... University/colleeg clubs are also usually essentially urban.

 

[cap n chris]

This is boiling down to the question (still unanswered even though posed a couple of years ago IIRC) - should caving be promoted?

BCA/NCA was asked via CSCC where it stood on this question but a response hasn't filtered through yet. The topic's been bouncing around for a couple of years (CSCC minutes, May 2004 refer, for example).

 

[Stu]

It's never occured to me before the numbers from ethnic minorities that one see in outdoor sports in the UK, (ie. almost none). I've no idea why that is.... these groups are well represented in more conventional sports eg. footie, cricket etc.

Is there a perception that mountaineering and hiking are for white middle class Englishmen, there is a bit of a leftover of that from history...

Most ethnic minority populations are found in cities, well away from the caves & the crags.

I don't think thats really a likely reason, look at the numbers of climbers from London. Many of the first climbers saw it as an escape from the city... University/colleeg clubs are also usually essentially urban.

But that could be used to further the "inner city" arguement. There is at least some climbing in these areas; Harrison's, Bowles etc for London and of course you have Derbyshire and the strong history there.
No one doubts the reason i.e. escapism but there is so much more for the inner city kids to do (or not I hear the cynics cry out!). Also cities are vastly bigger and more fragmented nowadays. In the past the walkers became the climbers/potholers from these urban areas; but they generally knew each other. My grandfather was into the Manchester walking and climbing scene of the 30' & 40's but the people he walked and climbed with he worked with and lived with on the same streets.

As for the Uni point. Yes they are usually urban, though lets face it most Uni clubs started out with some thinly veiled scientific intent (I can't corroborate this though)! This does feed into the middle class exclusion thing though.

Perhaps caving is a sad reflection of society today. Insular, cynical, self absorbed and self interested is what too many people appear today. In another post I asked about a song in a scene from Sunday at Sunset Pot. That's unlikely to happen again anytime soon on a regular basis.

Christ, I've depressed myself............

 

[Prince of Darkness]

It's fairly obvious that caving is colder wetter and generally more unpleasant than most people are prepared to put up with these days.

There are also quite a few newer more accessible sports that provide a quick reward for not a great deal of effort.

I think frankly that with womens lib most blokes feel they have to be at home with their families or at leat doing something with their families. Most wives and kids not really wishing to crawl around Langcliffe with their dad/hubby.

I think there are economic factors as work, the days of bumming around university are gone, there are loans to pay. The work enviroment is more demanding there aren't as many easy meal ticket jobs any more.

 

[Les W]

As regards the OP, I personally feel that one major drawback for caving is its lack of glamour and/or photogenic role models.
Climbing is becoming almost mainstream, what with the advent of indoor climbing walls. It's sold as a sexy/funky/counter culture (TM - just look at Fat Face clothing - Steve McClure) type activity. How the hell do we compete with that?

If we make caving a secret and don't tell people about it, but just drop hints about how great it is, then their curiosity will drive them to try it

 

[cap n chris]

I personally feel that one major drawback for caving is its lack of glamour and/or photogenic role models.
Climbing is becoming almost mainstream, what with the advent of indoor climbing walls. It's sold as a sexy/funky/counter culture (TM - just look at Fat Face clothing - Steve McClure) type activity.

But people who wear Fat Face clothing and who are interested in glamour, funk, counter culture etc. are a load of twats.

Thank god they're steering clear of caving.

 

[Stu]

I personally feel that one major drawback for caving is its lack of glamour and/or photogenic role models.
Climbing is becoming almost mainstream, what with the advent of indoor climbing walls. It's sold as a sexy/funky/counter culture (TM - just look at Fat Face clothing - Steve McClure) type activity.

But people who wear Fat Face clothing and who are interested in glamour, funk, counter culture etc. are a load of twats.

Thank god they're steering clear of caving.

Can't disagree with you. Have a couple of their tops and included in the packet was a pamphlet spouting a load of tw@-y nonsense - "live the dream" type sh1t. At the back - Terms and Conditions as rock solid and corporate as ever!!! Irony doesn't even cover it! And the suckers still buy this crap.

I'm calm now!

 

[cap n chris]

For the record, Stu, you're not a twat; you just wear twatty clothes :wink:

 

[Stu]

For the record, Stu, you're not a twat; you just wear twatty clothes :wink:

Cheers

 

[rich]

I was surprised to find out (Trip Reports: The Mistral) that the number of cavers operating in the UK has declined over the past thirty years or so. Considering that participation in other sports is on the increase, does anyone have any ideas why caving has bucked the trend?

Most of the points have been covered by others, but I'd add one more: difficulty in getting started. It's possible to get a taste of caving at an adventure centre or whatever, but the next step is tricky.

You might find a club not too far away, but when you visit their website you'll probably find it hasn't been updated since 1991. Their criteria for joining seem intimidating, as if they have far too many applicants and are trying to weed them out (e.g. a 6 month test period). If you do get in touch, you might be lucky and find that the person in charge of the listed email address hasn't let it expire and is actually answering email that week.

Once you actually do join, I suspect many clubs aren't that welcoming for novices. If the members haven't given up caving years ago, it might be a long time before they manage to take you on a beginners' trip. Suitable trips are probably rare, and even after that getting involved in trips is probably more of a test of your social skills than keenness.

Then, once you have joined a club (or given up and started your own) it is still a challenge to go caving anywhere decent. In South Wales for example, almost all of the really worthwhile caving requires a permit and/or a key and/or a leader to accompany you, all of which needs to be arranged in advance. Your information on how to obtain these may be (actually probably is) out of date, but even if it isn't, it is pure luck as to whether your email/phone call/SAE will be returned. If you are a member of the right club(s), or have been around for a while, you can probably bend the rules a bit, or at least know who to ask for the correct information, but the novice has to jump through all the hoops.

Finally, when you do get underground, you are lucky if you know where you are going. You are quite likely not going underground with someone experienced, and when you have tried to get hold of surveys you will have found that there is no stock left in the usual caving shops and no plans to print any more in the forseeable future.

I probably paint too bleak a picture here; in my experience, cavers are generally friendly and happy to introduce new people to the sport given half a chance. However, I have experienced/heard of/been guilty of all of the above.

Plenty of people are currently caving through university clubs, but a lot stop caving (or only do it occasionally) once they leave. If clubs were serious about recruiting new members they could do worse than "adopt" their local university club as a feeder club.

 

[MSD]

I think this general phenomenon is not restricted to caving. For example, last year I joined an amateur wind orchestra (If I know cavers everybody has a very strange mental vision at this moment!). I'm almost 40 but I'm one of the youngest players. It's pretty obvious that in 10 years this orchestra will be dead unless some younger players join, but the younger generation doesn't seem to be interested despite a very active school music programme in the region.

I think you can summarise the situation as follows. Young people are not very interested in doing activities which are collective and non-competitive in nature. If they can't shine in front of an audience they tend not to be very enthusiastic. The American solution to this is to make virtually everything competitive. So when I joined the band I should have had to fight it out with the other trombonists to decide who is "first trombone". Instead I just pulled up a music stand and played whatever music I was given. I don't care whether I'm 7th trombonist or 1st. Just as well, because I'm a fairly useless player.

But caving is a pretty crap sport for people who like competitiveness. There is no such thing as "first caver". Caving culture specifically denies the existence of such a person. Caving competitions are non-existent, and would be boycotted by most cavers. Other sports such as climbing and snowboarding have gone the competitive route and consequently enjoy more popularity.

Mark

 

[emgee]

I was surprised to find out (Trip Reports: The Mistral) that the number of cavers operating in the UK has declined over the past thirty years or so. Considering that participation in other sports is on the increase, does anyone have any ideas why caving has bucked the trend?

Most of the points have been covered by others, but I'd add one more: difficulty in getting started. It's possible to get a taste of caving at an adventure centre or whatever, but the next step is tricky.

I've cut a lot of pessimistic but true stuff. There's one other problem which I hesitate to mention but BCA insurance is only available for the over eighteens. So my club no longer takes members under that age.
I can understand why the committee feel this is the only option.

But from the point of view of getting young people into caving it's a disaster. It's the keen teenagers that you want to get interested but they can't join a local club.

 

[Les W]

I've cut a lot of pessimistic but true stuff. There's one other problem which I hesitate to mention but BCA insurance is only available for the over eighteens. So my club no longer takes members under that age.
I can understand why the committee feel this is the only option.

But from the point of view of getting young people into caving it's a disaster. It's the keen teenagers that you want to get interested but they can't join a local club.

The insurance bit is simply not true. faq 105 on the insurance section of the BCA website specifically deals with this.
http://www.british-caving.org.uk/?page=16

Your club probably doesn't allow under 18's (minors) due to legal liability (young persons act).
However it is still a valid point for not getting youth coming into caving

In our club we allow members from age 16 but with a parental consent form

Also if younger persons wish to go caving, we insist their parent or guardian also comes and assumes responsobility for the child. It is still a pain in the ar*e but ensures the liability is better spread out.

 

[cap n chris]

Here's another reason for decline in caving....

To go caving on a frequent basis it helps to live nearby a caving region.

Caving regions are generally pretty rural areas where, because of oppressive planning controls (i.e. not enough houses are being built) houses cost a mint and no-one young can afford to buy them.

OK, so you've all got cars so this is a load of nonsense. Here's another one...

If you're young there's so much to see, do and choose from .... so why would you want to limit yourself to one pastime? Stu has a point; caving's not cool.