Decline in Caver Numbers

[gus horsley]

If you're young there's so much to see, do and choose from .... so why would you want to limit yourself to one pastime? Stu has a point; caving's not cool.

Caving might become more cool after that Planet Earth programme. I can't get rid of this image of somebody base-jumping down GG Main Shaft with Fell Beck in spate.

I know sports run in cycles as far as popularity is concerned, but it maybe needs someone to jump-start a trend. I can remember when Nigel Short was a contender for the World Chess Championship and suddenly chess clubs throughout the land had a surge in membership; it didn't last but a rejuvenated hard-core remained. Same thing with climbing in the seventies with the likes of Ron Fawcett, hammering up seemingly impossible routes. Caving has its heroes but they don't tend to become as public as those in other sports.

It's too early in the morning for this sort of thing. And it was a late night last night. And I'm feeling a bit fragile.

 

[AndyF]

.. because of oppressive planning controls (i.e. not enough houses are being built) houses cost a mint and no-one young can afford to buy them.

LOL You can't really be advocating building more houses in caving areas can you..?

Young pepl can't afford houses anywhere in the country, it's not just caving areas. And the reason, all their parents have bought the nice places for holiday lets......

 

[BenM]

Being relativity new to caving (7 months and counting – With SUSS! :shock: ) thought I'd just add this…

Rich, Is completely right in everything he says, the most obvious reason for the decline in numbers is basically getting started – and keeping going!

Caving is not like football, where anybody can pick up a ball and go down to the park. You can't simply go caving on your own once you've done your first trip – after 7 months I still rely on others to take me down basically because of the totally understandable and necessary safety aspects. This is a lot of dedication and hard work for the “advanced” caver – for they are basically taking their time away from doing more fun/brick hard/digging trips to get a newbie up to speed… and it takes ages!

Yes caving is not mainstream “cool”… but it does intrigue more people than you may believe, and there is a lot of potential new cavers out there, its just finding them and keeping them! And that will take a lot of hard work and dedication, from the usual small number of people who become passionate about such things as development.

It's easy to get into football, rugby, cricket ect – through schools or easy to access local clubs. I think caving needs to take the same attitude – consistent, weekly, regular sessions for beginners – maybe through schools or simply by attracting local people to have ago.

The telling part for caving in this story: I have lived in Bradwell (3 miles from Castleton) for 21 years– and I had to go to University in Sheffield to start caving…

 

[susie]

the most obvious reason for the decline in numbers is basically getting started – and keeping going!

I suspect that getting started these days is actually easier than it used to be, as it is now relatively straightforward to make contact with the appropriate people through the Internet. I have seen more than one example on this forum where people have asked about suitable caving clubs in their region, and met with very welcoming responses...

The decline of at least some of the University caving clubs has reduced the number entering the activity. I went to university some 35 years ago and I know of at least five of my contempories from that club who are still actively caving (albeit on zimmer frames). These days the university no longer has a club owing to pressure from Health and Safety requirements, and lack of funding. I suspect that the vast majority of the students who would have joined the club have been lost to caving forever.

 

[AndyF]

A quick poll of a few of our club to see how people started goes as follows

Started at university - 3
Started with outdoor persuits course and liked it - 4
Worked with a caver and went along - 1
Phoned up a club member via advert - 1

 

[Chris J]

Plenty of people are currently caving through university clubs, but a lot stop caving (or only do it occasionally) once they leave. If clubs were serious about recruiting new members they could do worse than "adopt" their local university club as a feeder club.

Exactly - we would go a long way to turning the trend if we managed to just keep half of the people who start caving at Uni.

For a guesstimate there must be at least 100 people in each year born who go caving right through uni. Imagine half or even a quarter of that lot continuing to cave.

Plus if you think numbers are declining now, just wait. Where is the missing generation? Everyone I know is either 20ish (at uni or just finishing) or 30/40ish. Where is everone in between?

Also it is far to easy to blame the decline on HSE and university clubs - the big evil regulatory bodies that stop uni clubs from doing anything!!

We'll it's pretty much a myth, there have been only a couple of axamples of uni clubs (SUSS and MUSC and Plymouth) who have had problems and currently SUSS and MUSC have resolved their problems.

The real issue is that when people leave their uni club they don't join a mainstream caving club. And clubs aren't helping that!!

Who here (who is not a member of a uni club) has anything to do with the uni clubs?

What we need to do is build a better relationship between uni clubs and regular ones so that when people leave their uni club they are welcomed straight into a regular one.

 

[susie]

Everyone I know is either 20ish (at uni or just finishing) or 30/40ish. Where is everone in between?

Really? The only youngster I know that goes caving is Pitlamp. Everybody else I know is between 55 and 70.

 

[tubby two]

Yeah, the link between uni and established clubs is definatley an issue. I've been at uni for 5 years and of the people i've known to leave who still go caving (about 10) only 1 has joined a club and goes regularly!

So, anyone want to adopt newcastle? practically it's not that easy though- we're students so we dont have cars so we can't get away on club weekends and the only times we get a minibus we go on our own uni trips. Also as soon as someone does leave they get a car but a lot less free time, and more stuff to do with the limited time thay have so unless theres a group they might not be very good members. Also we're not an active digging club, were only sport cavers so theres no long commitments to hold our interest. Anyone want to adopt newcastle now?

To stick a personal slant on it, i'm a keen caver but i dont have transoprt, and you cant get to caves by bike or public transport from here. Hence, if i could get to the dales i'd go with a club, but i cant- and even if i could there's the age gap. Hence i go out riding more and more. And when i eventually finish uni? which club do i join, do any of them have groups of young people that arent already grouped off from the same uni club that they fed in from?

And who said caving wasn't cool? Alright it may not have a cool public image, but if you ask me hanging from a thread of rope halfway down a 50m shatf with a huge waterfall is pretty cool, as is squeezing through little passages then emerging in the side of a huge cavern. it certainly gives me an adrenalin buzz! If people wanted to make caving cool and popular than it would certainly be a lot easier than you might think.

As for clubs, does anyone have any figures on club numbers? Of the people i know who left uni caving the majority now just cave with friends, they dont want the rigid structure, politics and other faff of club life. Is caving going the same way as climbing has- the BMC is no longer controlled by block votes from the big clubs and its the individual members that are calling the shots- is this going to happen in caving? i think the club structure is more integral to caving tham climbing (what with the requirement for pooled gear), so what does that predict for the future? Ropes only a pound a metre...

tt.

 

[Deeply Mendippy]

I am one of those who started caving at uni, however once leaving uni (and moving far from the caving areas) I have not joined a club and fairly rarely venture underground. I know of others in the same situation.

Partly this is because there is no system to channel uni cavers into mainstream clubs and so it is easy to drift out of caving altogether. As has also been noted the vast majority of cavers in clubs are considerably older and has done considerably more caving than the average person in their early 20's which, despite clubs best efforts, can be a rather intimidating mixture. It is easy to see how this can lead into a vicious cycle.

I am not quite sure what the solution is - closer links between the uni's and the other clubs would help. Maybe club open days or similar would help as at least there would (hopefully) be a number of other newbie cavers there at the same time, rather than the usual method of having to turn up to a pub full of strangers and go through their vetting proceedures.

 

[Chris J]

Not wishing to point the finger of blame. But regular clubs really need to be better at recruiting uni cavers as they leave. Once you have a few it's easy. As a BEC member actively involved with all the uni clubs we recently got four students/ almost left ones to join.

So it just needs one person to lead the way - stay involved with the uni club and act as a link person.

From the other side I'd like to see regular clubs nominating a uni ambassador or similar. Someone whose job it is to liase with the uni clubs, get them involved and make sure they can be proposed/seconded at the appropriate meeting.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I think the novice-club relationship has problems on both sides. The novice caver needs a club that is welcoming, active, communicative and that has some kind of training/induction system in place. An effective training/induction system wont happen by accident and requires a pro-active approach from the club. In our club we recognise the importance of having regular novice friendly trips and have scheduled at least one every month. These trips have a relatively high cancellation rate because our induction of new members is sporadic and the demand is not always there but they are essential if we want to maintain a healthy club. My point here is that it's not easy running a novice-friendly caving club even when you make a positive effort to do so.

 

[Peter Burgess]

It also helps to have a trip diary planned in advance so there is a framework to the club's activities. If a club is based close to underground sites it also helps to run midweek evening trips, so prospective members can be met and introduced without the commitment of a weekend away. Regular social meets are handy too. We now get the majority of new members by enquiry through our website. By default, such people obviously have web access and it is therefore easy to keep them in touch as their interest develops. It is important however to have a vetting process nowadays. An unfortunate side effect of the technical age. All prospective new cavers should either be known to existing members, or present themselves in person at a club event. And, yes Andy, a significant number of them are women.

 

[AndyF]

Not wishing to point the finger of blame. But regular clubs really need to be better at recruiting uni cavers as they leave. Once you have a few it's easy. As a BEC member actively involved with all the uni clubs we recently got four students/ almost left ones to join.

So it just needs one person to lead the way - stay involved with the uni club and act as a link person.

From the other side I'd like to see regular clubs nominating a uni ambassador or similar. Someone whose job it is to liase with the uni clubs, get them involved and make sure they can be proposed/seconded at the appropriate meeting.

Interesting idea, but when students leave, they may get a job anywhere in the country, and so not be local to the unviersity any more.. If they do hang around, they are perhaps likely to just carry on caving with their uni club in an informal way...

There may be some mileage in this idea though....

 

[Peter Burgess]

If a club is based close to underground sites

I did of course mean a club that isn't based in a classic caving region.....

 

[emgee]

I've cut a lot of pessimistic but true stuff. There's one other problem which I hesitate to mention but BCA insurance is only available for the over eighteens. So my club no longer takes members under that age.
I can understand why the committee feel this is the only option.

But from the point of view of getting young people into caving it's a disaster. It's the keen teenagers that you want to get interested but they can't join a local club.

The insurance bit is simply not true. faq 105 on the insurance section of the BCA website specifically deals with this.
http://www.british-caving.org.uk/?page=16

Your club probably doesn't allow under 18's (minors) due to legal liability (young persons act).
However it is still a valid point for not getting youth coming into caving

In our club we allow members from age 16 but with a parental consent form

Also if younger persons wish to go caving, we insist their parent or guardian also comes and assumes responsobility for the child. It is still a pain in the ar*e but ensures the liability is better spread out.

Interesting about the insurance will have to do a bit of politicing methinks.

 

[kay]

Their criteria for joining seem intimidating, as if they have far too many applicants and are trying to weed them out (e.g. a 6 month test period). .

Very true! I have definitely been scared off by 'must be recommended by three full members' type stuff, and decided that the club in question wouldn't want me as a member. If that's true, fair enough, but not good for them if actually they were tryin to attract new members.

 

[rich]

From the other side I'd like to see regular clubs nominating a uni ambassador or similar. Someone whose job it is to liase with the uni clubs, get them involved and make sure they can be proposed/seconded at the appropriate meeting.

How about something more radical? I'm thinking of something like the Descent "adopt a cave" scheme, but "adopt a university club". Each major club could pick a uni club (probably mediated through CHECC) and help them with training, trips etc. -- maybe make them provisional members -- and in return get a steady supply of enthusiastic cavers who would be quite likely to join the club eventually.

 

[Les W]

It is strange that you came up with this at the same time as CSCC is suggesting something similar

Wessex is also considering several of the ideas rased in this topic, mentoring university clubs, open weekend at the Wessex and help with training. We are also appointing a youth liasion person to attempt to make this happen.

I assume that CHECC is driving this initative, if not then they should be. Also a more co-ordinated approach might occur if the BCA were involved

 

[Cookie]

Its interesting that this debate should kick-off now, since only last weekend at our committee meeting we were discussing how to attract younger members. We decided we should do as proposed and adopt-a-uni-caving-club. Some wag suggested we should adopt Bristol as it is our nearest University.

Idea's progressed onto a Wessex open day with training, trip leaders and barbeque etc. laid on. No date yet, but watch this space ...

 

[Cookie]

Freaky :shock: