A sad result to a caving accident

[ttolyaj]

I was sent this by a friend in the US, a bad result for the young man. A similar situation to Neil Moss by the sound of it. It just shows you cannot afford a failure in a rescue.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13864973

 

[Daz_of_caving]

Very sobering R.I.P

I think the comments page also deserves a look: http://www.tribtowns.com/comments/read_comments.asp?ref=13864973&sec=News#1262810

And why was he going into a cave at 8:45pm in the dark?

Oh dear...

I really don't think Americans are cut out for caving sometimes 
Daz

 

[RobinGriffiths]

All the Americans i've met in person have been nice, why do they have to be such ****holes online. Insert various anatomical orifices to taste.

Robin

 

[Clive G]

[quote author=Utah County Sheriff Sgt. Spencer Cannon]
"The cave will remain closed until it can be determined by the appropriate authorities whether it can be reopened safely, Cannon said."[/quote]

14 stone  4 lbs
6 ft tall
27 hours

A herculean attempt by the rescue party in a very confined situation foiled by the rock fracturing and a key bolt pulling out after the casualty had been extracted for some 10 ft uphill, according to The Salt Lake Tribune. The extraction had apparently initially enabled food and water to be supplied, but John Jones died less than 7 hours later after sliding back down to where he had originally been stuck.

Presumably there is a reason why people enter Bob's Push in The Birth Canal of Nutty Putty Cave head first, but, even when I weighed less than 10 stone, I preferred entering 60-70o downhill tubes feet rather than head first.  http://www.nuttyputtycave.com/pdf/NuttyPuttyCaveMap1.pdf

A brave effort all round.

R.I.P. John Edward Jones (21/1/1983-26/11/2009)
http://melissamaughan.blogspot.com/

 

[anfieldman]

All the Americans i've met in person have been nice, why do they have to be such ****holes online. Insert various anatomical orifices to taste.

Robin

They don't have to be American either Robin. Look at Sky News..........
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Potholer-Trapped-In-Cave-Dies-John-Jones-Was-Wedged-For-28-Hours-At-Nutty-Putty-Caves-In-Utah/Article/200911415473084?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15473084_Potholer_Trapped_In_Cave_Dies%3A_John_Jones_Was_Wedged_For_28_Hours_At_Nutty_Putty_Caves_In_Utah

My condolences to his family.

 

[JAM]

I really don't think Americans are cut out for caving sometimes 
Daz

Americans are no different to us British really, we all like to think that we can achieve thte impossible from time to time, just that most folk are able to walk away from a serious situtation with maybe the only injury incured being a dent in ones pride and street cred. John Jones wasn't as lucky. I think the caver's flag should be flown at half mast by all who take part in this activity.

If there's a god, I hope he blesses Mr J Jones.

Rich

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Americans are no different to us British really

Indeed, just had the misfortune to look at sundry Daily Mail comments on the world in general and his wife.

 

[Rick Brinkman]

Thought you guys would like to see this:
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13879115

Apparently, they are going to leave him there and seal the cave. 

I did not know Mr. Jones, but I recognized a friend/rescuer from one of the released photos.  Haven't been in contact with my friend yet either.

I'm going to hold off on my comments (on any board) until after Mr. Jones's memorial service tomorrow.



PS  Not the way I wanted my first post on this board to be.

Rick Brinkman
Coffee Creek, MT, USA
NSS 42385

 

[Clive G]

Thought you guys would like to see this:
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13879115

Apparently, they are going to leave him there and seal the cave. 

I did not know Mr. Jones, but I recognized a friend/rescuer from one of the released photos.  Haven't been in contact with my friend yet either.

. . .

Hi Rick

Thank you for posting here.

Having lost more than one of my best caving friends in cave diving accidents: Mexico and then later the Bahamas; I know how the family and friends of John Jones must be feeling. Very fortunately in both the incidents to which I refer a body recovery was possible (see 'National Geographic' Vol. 188, No. 3, September 1995, pp.78-93 for Ian Rolland's story in 'Trial and Tragedy a Mile Beneath Mexico: Cave Quest' by William C. Stone).

What I suggest is having a good and long talk with your friend who took part in the rescue and discover why the present recommendation has been made. After Rob Parker's death I spent 3 hours on the telephone to the German TV producer in Germany who'd been present on the boat from which Rob commenced his final fatal dive. You need to know the family's views, especially, and the reasons why a recovery might not be possible.

If a cave rescue/recovery team could be assembled with a workable plan for removing the body, then I'm sure in the three weeks to follow that something could be done. The problem would be getting the body into some sort of a durable/flexible bag such that it could be hauled backwards through the tight tunnel. On a rescue practice in the UK in a similar confined place we have used a drag sheet successfully, but in this instance the casualty will be of no assistance, indeed a great burden. It would not be a pleasant task and the health of those nearby could be affected. Bronchitis is one possibility, so breathing apparatus should probably be used by any recovery party and the cave left to ventilate properly for a good while afterwards.

A memorial plaque could be placed at the entrance to the passage where the accident happened, asking people not to proceed further. A little further in, out of sight, steel bars could also be drilled and concreted into place to halt anyone who might ignore the plaque and try to proceed further.

However, if the local rescue team does not feel there is a workable plan then their views should be respected, too, and, drastic as it sounds, the consequences of a caver having made such a mistake will effectively have closed the cave to everyone.

Best regards, Clive Gardener

 

[Clive G]

Hi Rick

The comment I made previously stands, but I've had some thoughts which would apply if a workable solution for recovering the body can be found. I have been temporarily caught myself in a tight horizontal passage (of a similar nature to those described in Nutty Putty Cave) during original exploration but was able to free myself on my own. These are my thoughts:

If the rock has fractured once, then it can do the same again for the same load ? so spread the load when anchoring the pulley used for the vertical haul by employing a Y-hang, loaded evenly.

Whilst the holes are being drilled for the Y-hang, have several people at the same time with small lump hammers (and chisels if required) knocking hell out of any flakes or projections which might cause problems during the most difficult part of the haul. This is not about minimal impact or cave conservation but about getting the job done ? treat each smash as if it is sorting out the rock which did for John Jones during the original rescue haul.

After the bolts are in place and the hammering done, clear the crawl of any loose stuff using a drag tray with ropes on either end. Clear everything loose out of the passage. Have someone now assess whether the route is sufficiently open for the haul to succeed. If they think not, then use whatever means are at your disposal to remove any final obstructions. We use explosive bolts placed in drilled holes to split rock where blasting fumes could be a hazard. Make sure to remove all debris.

Afterwards, if possible, line as much of the floor of the crawl, especially where the vertical haul becomes horizontal, with conveyor belt, such as the type which is used in mines for bringing coal and ore back to the surface. The loose end above the vertical drop should especially be bolted down so it won't ruckle up and catch during the haul. Pay especial attention where two sections of mat have to be joined, perhaps again by bolting down any loose ends. Any mud around (but not stones) should help to ease movement across the surface of the matting.

You'll have to work on the mechanism for converting the vertical haul to a horizontal pull. Could a wide-angle camera be set up out of the way, at the top of the vertical drop, to help assess how well things are going? It would be better to use a short-range transmitter for relaying the image, rather than a cable which might get tangled up during the haul. There may also be rope/wire rub points in the crawl, which could be tested for, prior to the haul proper, and protected using a small piece of matting material.

The rest depends on the situation ? with which I'm not familiar. Could any of the above help?

But if the local rescue team reckons that there is no workable scheme ? then go with their views first and foremost.

Clive Gardener
SECRO Warden

 

[badger]

As a funeral director my experience would say that no one could possibly know how another person feels about a death, we have a lost friends, family but only you know how you feel, you could not know how feel but only how you feel.

 

[badger]

also cant get my head around why they would need breathing equipment or should give bronchitis on a rescue operation.
decomposition may be an unpleasant smell and a face mask or vicks under the nose, but unless i have missed something not a major health risk.

 

[Clive G]

As a funeral director my experience would say that no one could possibly know how another person feels about a death, we have a lost friends, family but only you know how you feel, you could not know how feel but only how you feel.

I'll bow to your professional knowledge on this one!

All I know about confined spaces, especially where there may be a blockage ahead in a low cave passage, is that oxygen deficiency can be experienced. I once ended up with nausea and a headache at the far end of a 2,000 ft crawl and it took all my previous caving experience and a lot of determination to bring me back to a larger passage where I could stand and walk on my feet once again. I guess it depends on the ventilation and which way the draught (if any) is blowing.

I won't go into how the bronchitis issue affected me once - I believed at the time indirectly in relation to a corpse - unless we meet up in a pub somewhere, sometime, over a drink. Cheers!

 

[Clive G]

A very important point, which I think hasn't yet been made by anyone, is that a successful body recovery would not mean that the rescuers 'failed' in any way.

During the rescue itself the clock was ticking and with a person headfirst down a hole, ticking much faster than people could really act - also ticking at an unknown rate. Decisions had to be taken as to what was most likely to succeed without taking undue time. So, the sort of preparations that would be carefully planned for a body recovery, which could take several days to put into action, would just not have been practical during the live rescue incident.

A comparison should be made here with Floyd Collins, trapped in a horizontal position, who survived in a cave in Kentucky for 15-17 days in 1925.

When the rock fractured and the rescue team member was hit by a flying karabiner at speed, as I understand from The Salt Lake Tribune accounts, then the safety of rescue team members became as critical as the safe recovery of the casualty - whose own decision it was to enter the place where he encountered his predicament. This is not to say that the safety of rescue team members wasn't a major priority all the way along. The rescue team members were there helping to try and put a mistake right - but they should not have been getting injured themselves as a result. Once this started happening, through an unexpected occurrence, then hard, new decisions had to be taken.

If anyone reckons they could safely lead a recovery, then it would be worth allowing them the opportunity to enter Nutty Putty Cave and reassess the situation.

 

[Bob]

So sad, my heart goes out to his family and friends. RIP

 

[Clive G]

Events leading up to the call-out:
http://emjoe.blogspot.com/2009/11/john-jones.html

Caver views, just starting to come through from Utah:
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8885669

 

[Daz_of_caving]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8892976

They have began sealing the cave... (video)

Daz

 

[Clive G]

It sounds like people have been waiting for a reason to close this cave for some time.

Here's a presentation made around mid-2008, approx. 13 mins long, which gives an idea of the character of Nutty Putty Cave and its attraction to visitors, not all of whom appear from the photos to be 'regular cavers', including details of previous rescues:  http://jonjasper.com/Presentations/SavingNuttyPuttyCave/

 

[Clive G]

It is reported that explosives have been used to fragment the passage where John Jones has been left.
Concrete is being used to plug the entrance to Nutty Putty Cave.

[quote author=Kevin Carter, Director of SITLA - State Trust Land - landowner]
"Whilst SITLA recognizes that some in the caving community disagree with this decision, SITLA believes that the consensus decision of the various government entities with responsibility for land management, public safety, and search and rescue to close the cave was the correct one."
[/quote]
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=8892976

Now we all know in the UK why it is so important that we should continue to support and train with our local cave rescue teams, so that we will be ready to help effectively those in difficulty - other cavers like us - when the time arises.

Long may the good work of the British Cave Rescue Council continue!

 

[Clive G]

I was going to end my postings concerning John Jones' fate in Nutty Putty Cave with the above posting. However, there has been such an outcry in Utah concerning the closure of the cave - which was effectively the sacrificial novice cave for the region, enjoyed by many thousands of cavers since its discovery in 1960 - that I feel the ramifications deserve further consideration. By 2005 Nutty Putty Cave was receiving around 5,000 caver visits per year - just over four and a half times more than Agen Allwedd was receiving 20 years ago and approximately ten times the count in recent years.

The following web-page details the problems arising as a result of the accident in Nutty Putty Cave and gives a good insight into the way cave rescue presently works in the USA. Some previous misconceptions concerning the incident are answered. Questions of land ownership and access to caves, with and without expensive insurance, are also addressed.

Web-page provided by : Michael Leavitt - Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager :
http://www.nuttyputtycave.com/MLSave