Access: gating solutions

[darkplaces]

Cap'ns Points and c**tplaces answers.
1) It's on private land and the owner wishes to minimise liability for mishap(s)
A simple bolt, meaning the person has to undo the lid to gain access should do this, works for Box!

2) The entrance section is near vertical and could seriously affect the wellbeing of (mis)adventurous inquisitive types/chancers
Thats what the lid and bolt does, if you go to it, open the bolt, lift the lid (which might have SHAFT stamped 0n it) your not innocent. This view falls into trying to protect everyone against themself's and saying everyone is SOOO stupid that with a sign a bolted lid in the middle of a couple of fields! In a fairly rual area, they STILL accidentally fell down the hole. Basic on this logic we should put fences around trees, mountains, rivers, tall buildings, masts, fences around fences!

3) The cave's existence is in the public domain and it is not a secret location
So is Box, I dont see why it needs a key held at a club because of that.

4) Over half a million people live within an hour's drive of it
More if they fly! This has no bearing on it.

 

[cap n chris]

Perhaps the landowner will find favour with your comments; perhaps not.

 

[dunc]

One solution could be that if you discover a beautifully decorated area of cave which is particularly vulnerable to damage it might be a good idea not to over-publicise your discovery. This is what happens in parts of Southern France and it works really well - absolutely staggering formations but, with one or two exceptions, hardly any gates or restrictions on access.

That would work for a fairly reasonable length of time but gradually more and more people would find out about it. Something similar to this has taken place in the north - The Chocolate Box in Easegill, Centenary Way(or is it chamber, not sure) in GG - two examples that spring to mind where the locations are not overly publicised and this seems to have worked ok up to now..

In the UK I suspect "keeping schtuum" is only likely to be effective in the short term (immediately after a discovery and before its existence becomes more widely known - after all, isn't there a moral imperative to survey and publish, thereby ensuring it gets a wider press by default?).

Not everything is published immediately, so after discovery it's usually a while before it gets a wider press - depends on who dug it, how long they wait to publish it, how it's published if at all etc

 

[kay]

er am I in the right topic?

Did you read about the FO thinks old people are 'shock horror' taking risks on holiday! The majority of the BBC feedback comments were that were all fed up with being treated like retards who need protecting from ourself's.

That so shocked me I googled to find the story. First hit was a press release from FO about people taking unnecessary risks on holiday ... but this was dated 2003 and concerned 16-30 years olds Do you think they're going through all age groups in turn?

 

[Hammy]

My guesses why it does include:

1) It's on private land and the owner wishes to minimise liability for mishap(s)
2) The entrance section is near vertical and could seriously affect the wellbeing of (mis)adventurous inquisitive types/chancers
3) The cave's existence is in the public domain and it is not a secret location
4) Over half a million people live within an hour's drive of it

Thank goodness people don't apply this kind of 'logic' to caving in the Yorkshire Dales! 

 

[cap n chris]

Indeed. However, on a plus side, no children have fallen to their deaths in Mendip caves.

 

[graham]

Yet ...

 

[Goydenman]

er am I in the right topic?

I hate gates, they are a form of vandalizum and directly affects the uptake of new people getting involved. I think its a valid point to question why we feel the need to gate natural things or indeed old abandoned mines from people. We all seam to be assuming everyone else is an idiot and needs protecting. Did you read about the FO thinks old people are 'shock horror' taking risks on holiday! The majority of the BBC feedback comments were that were all fed up with being treated like retards who need protecting from ourself's.

I would prefer a harder entry then a locked gate, a vertical shaft, a wet U bend.
If your skilled enough to get in you deserve it!

I hate the idea that you have to be part of the 'in-crowd' to get a key.
IE, know someone who is a member of a club to get a key or just to know who to ask! Gates still lack the information to inform the interested who to contact.

I hate the idea that you have to sometimes contact 'so and so' for permits then a key.
You end up playing TAG, we all have busy lives and maybe live miles away. People also tell me of having the trip cancelled on them for no reason.

As an example - Why does Cuckoo Cleeves need a key?
1. Its far from the road.
2. its a short shaft, ie hard to access without basic skills.
3. Its a fine little cave but its not loaded with pretties! - IE whats being protected?
4. It houses no bats.

All it needs is a lid so people/animals dont fall down it.

I agree with all that Darkplaces says as well.

 

[cap n chris]

No doubt many do. Doesn't alter anything. Privately owned sites are just that.

I would prefer a harder entry then a locked gate, a vertical shaft, a wet U bend.
If your skilled enough to get in you deserve it!

Lol! - whatever next? Rotating knives?

I think you're muddling up Endurance Conservation with Engineering Solutions.

How about "If you can be bothered enough to organise getting the key, you deserve to get in"?

 

[Hughie]

No doubt many do. Doesn't alter anything. Privately owned sites are just that.

I don't understand why people think private ownership equates to public access.

Surely if a landowner would like their cave gated and locked as part of an access arrangment, then so be it.

Tough. Get used to it. Use it or lose it (for everyone else).

 

[NigR]

...any cave which is noteworthy is going to become known about pretty quickly, I guess: sh*tty little scrote holes kept secret will no doubt remain secret, wherever they may be.

In the UK I suspect "keeping schtuum" is only likely to be effective in the short term (immediately after a discovery and before its existence becomes more widely known - after all, isn't there a moral imperative to survey and publish, thereby ensuring it gets a wider press by default?).

Could I ask precisely how you would define "noteworthy" and roughly how long you would regard as "short term"?

Yes, I agree that all finds should be surveyed and published eventually but, as dunc has pointed out, there is usually no inherent time scale involved as such.                                           

 

[cap n chris]

Could I ask precisely how you would define "noteworthy" and roughly how long you would regard as "short term"?

Noteworthy = worthy of note. i.e. if it isn't worthy of note, it isn't noteworthy.

Short term = not long term.

 

[NigR]

Noteworthy = worthy of note. i.e. if it isn't worthy of note, it isn't noteworthy.
Short term = not long term.

OK.

So what, in the context of a caving discovery, would you regard as being worthy of note? Length of passage, total depth, quality of passage, abundance of formations? I really am interested as to how you would go about judging this so a non-facetious answer would be appreciated.

Also, I really would like to know (in approximate real-time terms) just how long you would regard as being in the short-term.

 

[anfieldman]

I think it is fairly obvious (on Mendip anyway) that gating does indeed conserve caves. All the caves with the best formations and lack of vandalism are gated and the very best are gated with a leadership system in place.
Why do all the 'anarchist' cavers want to get on their high horse about access when all they need to do is follow very simple procedures and show some patience like most adults do.
If you love caving and visiting caves with a lot of beauty you will put up with having to apply to other clubs / organisations to get into them. In an ideal world there would be no assholes who want to break stall, spray paint walls and litter caves but as we have seen many times, we do not live in an ideal world so get real.
Society runs on rules and we are all supposed to abide by them. Without them there is chaos.
Gating caves in my opinion is the only thing that works. Every caver I have met so far does not object to having to apply for a key or going through any of the other procedures and if a gated cave is on someones land it's their cave so abide by their wishes or go and find a different cave!
All I hear is 'you have to join club to get access and that's not right'. So what! If you really want to go caving then you would put up with it. There are many benefits to joining a club. Access to caves is one of the major ones but there are many,many more.
So quit your whinging and get used to what has worked for many years without a problem.
Rant over.

 

[NigR]

Firstly, I object to being labelled an "anarchist" caver because I am not. I live in South Wales and abide by the access restrictions in place here. However, just because I abide by them does not mean I have to approve of them and I am perfectly entitled to voice my opinions.

Secondly, I belong to two clubs purely through personal choice. One of these clubs supports the gating of caves in South Wales whilst the other is vehemently opposed to it. I have no real problem with this so why should anyone else?

Although anfieldman may well have some valid points about the better decorated Mendip caves (I can't really comment because I am not familiar with them), I feel that it is attitudes such as his that lead to people becoming the "anarchist" cavers he so obviously despises.

Rant over, likewise.

 

[martinr]

Although anfieldman may well have some valid points about the better decorated Mendip caves (I can't really comment because I am not familiar with them

Hi NigR

Here's a link to a typical, decorated, Mendip cave. http://mendipcavinggroup.org.uk/sections/photos/photos.html

I woud be interested to know how, other than by gating the cave and having a leader system, you would conserve this cave? Note that the caver in this photo http://mendipcavinggroup.org.uk/mark%20shinwell/FLOW_RHS.jpg has removed his footware and oversuit before proceeding.

MartinR

 

[anfieldman]

You obviously hold yourself in high regard NigR. You are not the only one with the same attitude as yourself but I was not pointing out anyone in particular.
I would truly love to see no restrictions or gates on any cave but I know that in a short space of time (5 to 10 years in my guess) a cave would have a significant amount of damage to it. What everyone needs to realise is that however careful cavers are, we do some damage to a cave just by entering it.

 

[NigR]

Apologies to anfieldman if I took his post the wrong way. I did assume the "anarchist caver" remark was aimed directly at me as his post came straight after one of mine and also because it appears that I have started this thread (thanks to the way cap'n chris has set it up).

I really do agree with the points you are making about the damage caused to caves just by entering them. I have seen this first-hand in many of the passages I have discovered myself and have found it most upsetting. I also agree that it definitely gets worse with the passage of time - there are some places I just can't bear to go back to. I am not denying that  a problem does exist, it is just that I do not think gating may necessarily be the ideal solution in attempting to deal with it. Obviously, gates can (and do) act as an aid to cave conservation by limiting the amount of traffic but I think there are other ways in which this can be achieved.

Thanks to MartinR for the link to the wonderful photos. Yes, I can see that you have a serious problem conservation-wise and you have my sympathies. Take a look at my earlier posts on this topic to get some idea about how you might like to consider approaching things in future to avoid a similar situation arising again. If you create a high level of demand to visit what you have found by deliberately publicising its extent (and quality) through as many ways as possible (lectures, magazines, websites) then you cannot really complain. In my experience a low-key approach to publicity is by far the better option so far as long-term conservation is concerned.

 

[graham]

NigR

The MCG will, I am sure be happy to return those passages 10 years from now knowing that they will be well-conserved. In the mean time many others will have appreciated the publicity given to them, both cavers and non-cavers.

That does contrast with those passages that you have discovered but cannot bear to return to. Maybe if you had invested some more time and effort to looking after those finds rather than moving on to other places then that would not be the case?

Maybe?

 

[cap n chris]

I am VERY bothered by caves suffering wanton damage ..... but I think there are more acceptable solutions to the problem other than gates.

NigR, can you clarify your acceptable solutions (plural), please? - so far I only recall your suggestion to keep quiet about discoveries as being one such.

Recap:

You originally stated quite unequivocally that you are against gating caves, period, that you are conservation-minded, and that you have better solutions.

If it was down to me there would be no gates on any caves anywhere, just as I've always said

I am VERY bothered by caves suffering wanton damage (conservation is, believe it or not, one of my chief concerns these days)

I think there are more acceptable solutions to the problem other than gates.

Therefore it seems reasonable to believe that your non-gating approaches are also conservationally effective approaches.

I'd love to hear of them as they may be just the ticket for other sites around the country; please tell.

My personal contention is that there aren't many effective & reliable methods of conserving caves other than those which have been developed over the last hundred years and which we still use to this day and I think it is unwise for people such as yourself to torpedo conservation efforts by the glib use of expressions such as "other acceptable solutions" without providing details - if you plant in the minds of gullible people the idea that gates are bad they may take it upon themselves to circumvent the locks, to the detriment of the cave, to the cost of the caving community at large (cavers have to pay for the damage to be repaired) and to the exasperation of volunteers who give up their weekends to fix the damage, both external and internal.