Access: gating solutions

[cap n chris]

it appears that I have started this thread (thanks to the way cap'n chris has set it up).

It's fair to point out that you requested a new thread was started on this topic, though, and since the original DYO thread was split into two at one of your posts, you get to be the new thread starter, as far as this software is concerned.

 

[cap n chris]

So what, in the context of a caving discovery, would you regard as being worthy of note? Length of passage, total depth, quality of passage, abundance of formations? I really am interested as to how you would go about judging this so a non-facetious answer would be appreciated.

All of the above. Put simply, any feature(s) of a new discovery considered worthy of repetition from one caver to another is, to my way of thinking, a discovery "worthy of note"; the acid test would be "If other caver(s) knew of this, would they want to visit it?" - if the answer is "yes", then it requires conservation measures to be put in place.

Also, I really would like to know (in approximate real-time terms) just how long you would regard as being in the short-term.

Weeks, single figures.

 

[martinr]

Obviously, gates can (and do) act as an aid to cave conservation by limiting the amount of traffic but I think there are other ways in which this can be achieved

And what, precisly, are these "other ways"

Thanks to MartinR for the link to the wonderful photos. Yes, I can see that you have a serious problem conservation-wise and you have my sympathies. Take a look at my earlier posts on this topic to get some idea about how you might like to consider approaching things in future to avoid a similar situation arising again. If you create a high level of demand to visit what you have found by deliberately publicising its extent (and quality) through as many ways as possible (lectures, magazines, websites) then you cannot really complain.

I am not complaining. We do not have a serious problem and we do not need your sympathy, thanks anyway. We have a conservation and access policy in place. There is a leader sysyem. Anyone who wants a trip can vist the cave. That doesnt mean they can trash it though. Leaders will not allow access to decorated passages that lead nowhere, eg Neverland (the clue is in the name). Access to thse passages is limited to original discovery, surveying and a photo trip to record the formations.

As for your suggestion that we should not publicise our discoveries. Are you serious? How could it be kept secret? I dont know what cavers are like in your region, but on Mendip we are a community. We talk to each other. And anyway, even if we didn't, the news of the this discovery broke on UKCaving forum within 48 hours of the find (albeit without details). How would you feel if you discoverd something like this and your club kept it "secret" only for someone else to post the details on the web?

In my experience a low-key approach to publicity is by far the better option so far as long-term conservation is concerned.

Details please? How many caves equivalent to Upper Flood have you discovered, and what have you done to conserve them apart from not telling anyone they exist?

 

[darkplaces]

You all seam to be swinging in extreams, NO gates or ALL Gated, I think something more in the middle is needed, sadly this would mean more effort and thought on cavers to build the entrances/gates etc that they do.

For example - St Cuthburts - fine, gate/leader ok fair enough, I'm not skilled enough to get in anyway.

My example site- "The likes off" Cuckoo Cleeves (again ignoring the landowner for a moment) the likes of that cave totally dont need access restrictions, gates and such like as I have put forward before.

So what us 'anarchist' types want is more thought before a pad lock is poped on by default.

As to "Other Ways" of keeping chavs out or restricting access to a certain skill level I refer to Cuckoo Cleeves. The pad lock offers no protection to anyone with bolt-cutters but a smooth shaft, if they can get up and down that maybe they deserve to get in.

Plus why should I join a club if I have my own group of people I cave with? Oh and say live 1-2hrs away (using mendip as an example) and maybe go caving once or twice every couple of months. Why am I reliant on Mr X and hoping club Y is open to get a key to visit the likes off Cuckoo Cleeves.

I'v picked Cuckoo Cleeves because of it fits the bill of a cave that just doesn't need a lock, other then land owners (assumed) liability, when a bolt is all that's required to satisfy most people (Derbyshire, Cumbria, Box etc).

Any other caves or mines which fall into this example?

 

[Ship-badger]

How many caves equivalent to Upper Flood have you discovered, and what have you done to conserve them apart from not telling anyone they exist?

Really Martin, you don't expect him to answer this do you?

Sorry, couldn't resist the temptation.

I am enjoying reading this discussion. Like Cap', NigR and most right-minded cavers, I wish the World were different and there were no gates on any caves; but the World is what it is and gates are the best method we have found up to now to keep what we have in as good a condition as we can, and protect bats and stupid people. I have never been prevented from visiting any cave by an access procedure; tight squeeze yes but, access procedure, no! All it usually takes is a phone call, occasionally a letter or email; what a lot of effort that is!

Gates have their limitations of course; we have had several torn from their mountings in the Forest over the years but, they keep out the casual visitor and the lazy caver (too lazy to arrange access). They will never keep out the determined pirate or vandal.

Keeping discoveries secret is, in my opinion, about as selfish as you can get; and I don't think it works in the long-run though, of course, I'll never know will I? I believe that we have a duty to share our discoveries with our fellow caver's. Put in place procedures to protect what you have found, but don't prevent anyone else from seeing it who has a genuine interest.

 

[martinr]

How many caves equivalent to Upper Flood have you discovered, and what have you done to conserve them apart from not telling anyone they exist?

Really Martin, you don't expect him to answer this do you?

Well, actually I do. He doesnt have to name the caves, just say how they are conserved. (Just because they may not have been publicised doesnt mean they wont be found again by other cavers).

When I started caving 30 years ago, Barnes Loop in Swildons was still a pretty passage. The convention at the time was that nobody should use it to get to sump 1. We were taken to it once to see it, not allowed to go through through to the end of the passage but to return to the rift,  and told we shouldnt go there again. Nowadays it would seem that Barnes Loop is the preferred route, avoiding the rift. consequently it is no longer as pretty as it once was. I am not saying it should have been gated, just taht nothing was done to conserve that particular passage so the inevitable result was damage to the cave.  So I am I am fascinated to know how how NigR manages to conserve the caves he has discovered without any apparent access control (this doesnt have to be a gate?). His answer so far seems to be "dont tell anyone it is there", to hope that those who already know never tell anyone else it exists and that no one else stumbles across it.  Whereas MCG have a conservation and access policy, we will take anyone to Upper Flood, we will lead them and prevent damage,  We have fixed-point photography so that we can compare sections of the cave to how they were years ago and measure any damage. We will be held accountable if things go wrong. In fact, on a long digging trip in UFS many years ago, I was cold and tired and as I was a little clumsy I accidentally broke 1 straw. Result - I ceased to be a leader. NigR cant be held accountable as he hasnt said where his discoveries are.

 

[cap n chris]

You all seam to be swinging in extreams, NO gates or ALL Gated, I think something more in the middle is needed, sadly this would mean more effort and thought on cavers to build the entrances/gates etc that they do.

I'm confused.

What's "in the middle" of no gates or all gates? - some gates, I guess. Isn't that what we've got, though?

Confused.

 

[darkplaces]

Ok lets list the current forms of access management, some caves/mines are a mixture, actually this is handy for getting a better view of how much is restricted or not.

gate + key + leader + permit + fixed date written request = Some FoD
gate + key + leader + permit = Charterhouse, cuthberts
gate + key + permit = GB
gate + key + leader = White pit
gate + key = Cuckoo Cleeves, rhino, Longwood?
gate + Bolt = Box, Derbyshire, Cumbria, ideal for Cuckoo Cleeves
Difficult Access (SRT, ladder, wet) = Brewers Yard (its a bit tight getting in?), (This option should be used more)
Open access = Swildons, Goatchurch, sidcot, Cumbria

Gates were they are needed, difficult access to Open access were gates are not needed. Less of this "incase someone trips over while climbing over a fence after two fields opening the hatch" scare tactics to lock things away.

 

[Hughie]

You all seam to be swinging in extreams, NO gates or ALL Gated, I think something more in the middle is needed, sadly this would mean more effort and thought on cavers to build the entrances/gates etc that they do.

I'm confused.

What's "in the middle" of no gates or all gates? - some gates, I guess. Isn't that what we've got, though?

Confused.

Equally confused. I thought the same.

 

[cap n chris]

Gates were they are needed

Absolutely.

 

[Hughie]

Ok lets list the current forms of access management, some caves/mines are a mixture, actually this is handy for getting a better view of how much is restricted or not.

gate + key + leader + permit + fixed date written request = Some FoD
gate + key + leader + permit = Charterhouse, cuthberts
gate + key + permit = GB
gate + key + leader = White pit
gate + key = Cuckoo Cleeves, rhino, Longwood?
gate + Bolt = Box, Derbyshire, Cumbria, ideal for Cuckoo Cleeves
Difficult Access (SRT, ladder, wet) = Brewers Yard (its a bit tight getting in?), (This option should be used more)
Open access = Swildons, Goatchurch, sidcot, Cumbria

Wouldn't really call that "restricted". (Btw, as far as I'm aware, you don't need a permit for St Cuthberts.)

It's as restricted as you want to make it. If you're prepared to make a little effort to organise your trip then it's pretty open access.

You can't just walk into any shop you want, when you want. Life just isn't like that, is it?

Less of this "incase someone trips over while climbing over a fence after two fields opening the hatch" scare tactics to lock things away.

Absolutely - in an ideal world! However.......



I can't understand just what some people don't understand about privately owned property and some pretty mild access requirements.

 

[cap n chris]

Me neither.

 

[graham]

Nor me.

 

[cap n chris]

gate + key + leader + permit + fixed date written request = Some FoD

You'll have trouble understanding some of the caves in the Dales, DP:

no gate + no key + no leader + permit + fixed date written request

 

[dunc]

I can't understand just what some people don't understand about privately owned property and some pretty mild access requirements.

So you and others are the type of people that disagree with the Crow/open access act that allows walkers access to huge swaithes of privately owned land then? :-\

 

[graham]

I can't understand just what some people don't understand about privately owned property and some pretty mild access requirements.

So you and others are the type of people that disagree with the Crow/open access act that allows walkers access to huge swaithes of privately owned land then? :-\

And you've got a footpath through your back garden, have you?

 

[dunc]

And you've got a footpath through your back garden, have you?

Your point being?

 

[graham]

That these circumstances are not entirely comparable.

 

[dunc]

True, one is legal access the other merely granted, all still private land though.. Not having a legal right of access is a downside of being a minority sport I guess - or is it a plus side when you visit certain caves and you're the only ones there....??  :-\

 

[Hughie]

I believe CRoW only covers "mapped access land". Not all land.

All sorts of different groups use my land, ranging from metal detector clubs, kids on motorbikes (though not recently), deer stalkers, hunts, wildlife enthusiasts. I don't particularly care one way or the other in their interests - however - they all have one thing in common - they all have the common courtesy to ask me if it's ok to do whatever it is they want to do, and if there are any restrictions I'd like them to observe.

No problems. No hassle. Just common courtesy.

It's the dog walkers that seem to think they can wander wherever they want.

So in answer to your question:-

So you and others are the type of people that disagree with the Crow/open access act that allows walkers access to huge swaithes of privately owned land then?

- couldn't possibly say, as (as far as I'm aware) my land is no more open access than your back garden.

or is it a plus side when you visit certain caves and you're the only ones there....?? 

Aah, now that's definitely a good thing  .