Access: gating solutions
- Thread starter NigR
- Start date
caving_fox
Active member
"Are there any caves that were once attractive, but are no longer so, despite having been gated since they were discovered?
"
Gilwern Stream in Ogof Draenen. A cave that is now 14 yrs old, has mud smeared formations that used to be clean.
Although admittedly this is a combination lock rather than a key, so I suspect some trips were by cavers who didn't formally request the code.
It also forfills DPs access requirement difficulties. Although not hard, it certainly isn't something you are going to just wander down on the offchance it leads somewhere interesting.
Conclusion: Traffic = damage.
The only downside to gates is the lack of spontineity, if you suddenly discover you have an unexpected weekend/day to go caving without advance notice you'll be limited in the caves you can get to. Rejoice in caving in those that you can get to without advance planning insread.
"
Gilwern Stream in Ogof Draenen. A cave that is now 14 yrs old, has mud smeared formations that used to be clean.
Although admittedly this is a combination lock rather than a key, so I suspect some trips were by cavers who didn't formally request the code.
It also forfills DPs access requirement difficulties. Although not hard, it certainly isn't something you are going to just wander down on the offchance it leads somewhere interesting.
Conclusion: Traffic = damage.
The only downside to gates is the lack of spontineity, if you suddenly discover you have an unexpected weekend/day to go caving without advance notice you'll be limited in the caves you can get to. Rejoice in caving in those that you can get to without advance planning insread.
D
darkplaces
Guest
Conclusion: Traffic = damage.
Something I will agree with actually, with all the access restrictions in the world if enough 'bona-fide' cavers visit it will suffer. Now you have to think about time-scales beyond your own life time and that of your grandchildren. You could go down the route of making access harder, reducing the supply as it were, what that would do is to increase traffic to sacrificial caves such as goatchurch and swildons etc which are freely accessible causing more damage, delays (pitch 20) not only to the cave but to the access areas as well. Another solution might be to look at the existing locked caves and ask;
Does this cave need to be locked?
Could unlocking this cave and allowing free access increase the supply of [free accessible] caves, and so spread the traffic?
Why are some caves more popular then others?
Are unlocked caves just as popular with bona-fide cavers as locked ones?
What does the answer to the above question tell us?
Fair questions I think worthy of proper answers..
Something I will agree with actually, with all the access restrictions in the world if enough 'bona-fide' cavers visit it will suffer. Now you have to think about time-scales beyond your own life time and that of your grandchildren. You could go down the route of making access harder, reducing the supply as it were, what that would do is to increase traffic to sacrificial caves such as goatchurch and swildons etc which are freely accessible causing more damage, delays (pitch 20) not only to the cave but to the access areas as well. Another solution might be to look at the existing locked caves and ask;
Does this cave need to be locked?
Could unlocking this cave and allowing free access increase the supply of [free accessible] caves, and so spread the traffic?
Why are some caves more popular then others?
Are unlocked caves just as popular with bona-fide cavers as locked ones?
What does the answer to the above question tell us?
Fair questions I think worthy of proper answers..
Brains
Well-known member
Hmmm - the honey pot connundrum, in the Lake District Nat Pk some areas have been "made available" to the hoards as sacrificial bits of cocolate box lid beauty. Several PhD's have been written on this subject, so I will not try and second guess their conclusions but await an informed response...
(eg locations such as Tarn Hows, Cat Bells, Dove Cottage etc)
(eg locations such as Tarn Hows, Cat Bells, Dove Cottage etc)
Duncan Price
Active member
NigR said:
The dry part of the cave is alright, the underwater part even better and I was mighty impressed by Mike's cordial reception when I turned up to dive there and found him digging in a shakehole nearby. He even came over to check we were out OK.
mike barnes
New member
Why does NigR continually try and side step the issues. The point about the advertising of his survey on the internet is that he previously states that it's best to keep new finds secret. This does seem to be somewhat of a contradiction. But I'm also puzzled by the claim in his original thread that the cave was surveyed for posterity in the ever increasing chance that all access will be lost. Now you are saying you didn't survey the whole dry cave, just some of it. Why would you only survey some of it for posterity, are some bits more important than others. What was your criteria?
So he doesn't sneak anywhere. So what about the finding of Lon Drury. You and the other 9 in your club agreed with the finders of the new passage that you would only go in after them. So why, Mr Rogers did you decide to go in by yourself. Of course, the point of this thread is to see the general consensus on gates and obviously, the reaction is mixed. The general feeling seems to be that gates are a nessecary evil which in the interest of conservation is a important part of modern caving life. My view is that if a cave is well decorated, controlling access is the best solution. It is also helpful to keep out poachers whilst the original explorers explore. Mr Rogers, please note Duncan Prices experience of visiting Heavens Door. He walked up to me whilst digging and asked if I wouldn't mind him diving in the sump. Of course I didn't, I even told him where there might be an ongoing lead. As it was a newish find at the time, don't you think that was the right and descent way to go about things, rather than your approach.
Back onto the gate subject, you go on about the gate free Black Mountain. So what about Dan yr Ogof. The Black Mountain is predominantly gate free, with the exception of Dany because there aren't any caves. Simple logic.
'When one is caving in someone else's country'!!? Please Nig, you must have heard of the UK. Also, my Great Grandmother is Welsh, so does that mean you're living in 'my' country and now you're telling me what I should be doing in 'my' country. Or is it only 1/8 my country, where does that leave us? Please NigR, get a life.
So he doesn't sneak anywhere. So what about the finding of Lon Drury. You and the other 9 in your club agreed with the finders of the new passage that you would only go in after them. So why, Mr Rogers did you decide to go in by yourself. Of course, the point of this thread is to see the general consensus on gates and obviously, the reaction is mixed. The general feeling seems to be that gates are a nessecary evil which in the interest of conservation is a important part of modern caving life. My view is that if a cave is well decorated, controlling access is the best solution. It is also helpful to keep out poachers whilst the original explorers explore. Mr Rogers, please note Duncan Prices experience of visiting Heavens Door. He walked up to me whilst digging and asked if I wouldn't mind him diving in the sump. Of course I didn't, I even told him where there might be an ongoing lead. As it was a newish find at the time, don't you think that was the right and descent way to go about things, rather than your approach.
Back onto the gate subject, you go on about the gate free Black Mountain. So what about Dan yr Ogof. The Black Mountain is predominantly gate free, with the exception of Dany because there aren't any caves. Simple logic.
'When one is caving in someone else's country'!!? Please Nig, you must have heard of the UK. Also, my Great Grandmother is Welsh, so does that mean you're living in 'my' country and now you're telling me what I should be doing in 'my' country. Or is it only 1/8 my country, where does that leave us? Please NigR, get a life.
mike barnes said:
Now I'm puzzled. We did survey the whole dry cave, or at least I thought we did. Have just checked my figures and the total (plan) passage length comes to 42.99 metres. Maybe we missed something? And yes, it was indeed surveyed purely in case all access was lost - hence the reason it has never been drawn up or published (it was the data that was offered to any interested persons, not an actual survey).
mike barnes said:
Dan-yr-Ogof and Cathedral are part of the showcave complex and it is obvious that they should be regarded as a special case. Tunnel connects with Cathedral and was originally discovered by a club that supports gating, hence the acceptance of the gate. The rest of the Black Mountain is gate-free purely because of the strenuous efforts of generations of local cavers to uphold the long-standing tradition. I can think of three specific instances where cavers from elsewhere were misguided enough to install gates on caves in the area - all were removed or damaged. Despite what you may think, there are plenty of caves worth a visit - you just need to know where they are. (Sorry, ChrisJC!).
mike barnes said:
Surely all the more reason to show some respect for her native language.
(And yes, I will get around to answering MartinR's points - please note, graham - I just need to get over to Penwyllt to find those references to quote).
S
Scutchamer
Guest
In my experience of caving (2 1/2 years with a uni club - i.e. spontaneous, lazy and only visiting 'popular' caves) access is not really a problem (Easegill, Castleton 'area', Gaping Gill, Alum, OFD, Aggie, Swildons, Cuthberts, etc.). We have had problems, Leck Fell has a waiting list longer than our member list, GB and Rhino keys are now ?20* (from WCC, free at BEC (with hut key), unsure of SMCC) which for a minibus full of cavers comes to an eye watering ?60 and Box has only one allen key at the pub. DP can bang on about the glorious access at Box but we couldn't get in the other weekend and can't find a shop that sells 17mm allen keys (locally/on internet at least and not in a set with 30 other allen keys).
As for local language, these arguments really annoy me, I don't mind the theory but forcing a language because it's in Wales (for example) is just trying to be politically correct/to give the locals something else to grumble about, it'll only get abbreviated to OFD, Daren, DYO, PYO anyway. Besides isn't English also an official language, more people speak it anyway? The English/British/Irish/Scottish/Welsh are a mongrel race. Saxon, Viking, Norman, Celtic, Roman, Phoenician and everything else in between. These are just the 'current' fashionable languages, what about Cornish? Should all caves in Yorkshire be spelt in 'northern'? Besides I thought in S. Wales English was more popular hence it comes before Welsh on the road signs, north Wales is a different kettle of fish...
*at WCC you also have to go through a lecture (argument) on cave leadership and generally deal with hostility (from more than one person), I walked out last time.
As for local language, these arguments really annoy me, I don't mind the theory but forcing a language because it's in Wales (for example) is just trying to be politically correct/to give the locals something else to grumble about, it'll only get abbreviated to OFD, Daren, DYO, PYO anyway. Besides isn't English also an official language, more people speak it anyway? The English/British/Irish/Scottish/Welsh are a mongrel race. Saxon, Viking, Norman, Celtic, Roman, Phoenician and everything else in between. These are just the 'current' fashionable languages, what about Cornish? Should all caves in Yorkshire be spelt in 'northern'? Besides I thought in S. Wales English was more popular hence it comes before Welsh on the road signs, north Wales is a different kettle of fish...
*at WCC you also have to go through a lecture (argument) on cave leadership and generally deal with hostility (from more than one person), I walked out last time.
anfieldman
New member
Scutchamer said:
This is not the place to slag off clubs (and presumably whoever was there when you went to collect a key) so please take it up with the comittee if you feel you have been badly treated.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Hughie said:
Many of the Mendip Caving Clubs have their own Allen Key for Box.
Brains
Well-known member
cap 'n chris said:
I believe you can also borrow one from the Quarrymans Arms for a small deposit, as well as get surveys and beer from there...
Got my key quite easily from an industrial suppliers - FWB - who only said "short or long throw?" and only wanted under a ?10 for it.
ditzy 24//7
Active member
last time i borrowed a key from the quarrymens it was only a ?5 deposit.
Christian_Chourot
New member
Bob Smith said:
(Bet I get some grief for this...)
How much do you charge non-members to use various keys? Charging a fee for key use seems a little mean. Surely a painful deposit is sufficient to justify it's return, otherwise it's looks to me like a case of making money just-because-you-can. I can't see many costs to be covered when giving out keys if people using them either do the necessary travelling or send SAEs. Or is it because you don't actually want non-members to use the keys and it's used as a detterent to keep keys available for when members want to use them?
Course, a small fee of the goodwill type I can accept though.
Of course, I'm in danger of being a bit hypocritical here, it's not like UBSS gets approached for it's keys by non-members very often (I'm not sure what our policy even is).
graham
New member
Christian_Chourot said:
Christian, we have a small but steady group of clubs that use "our" keys on request. Like most other CCC Ltd clubs, we require a key deposit in order to assure that the things come back, we also charge for CCC Ltd permits. This charge is marginally more than the permits cost us, the very small surplus that we accrue really only covers our admin costs. As with other CCC Ltd clubs we have a key set for members and a separate set used for loans, that is why you rarely if ever, encounter these requests.
I think you will find that no Mendip club actually makes any significant profit from supplying keys to third parties.
whitelackington
New member
Hello Graham,
are The UBSS keys
that you lend out
kept in your hut
near Burrington?
are The UBSS keys
that you lend out
kept in your hut
near Burrington?
