Access: gating solutions

[darkplaces]

Well I am glad we have had this discussion and that action will be taken and judgements made as to the access, use and managment of caves by people. God forbid anyone is encouraged into this sport/hobby/obsession by finding oppressive gates and a big ass padlock and little else in the way of information.

 

[cap n chris]

God forbid anyone is encouraged into this sport/hobby/obsession by finding oppressive gates and a big ass padlock and little else in the way of information.

Logically flawed, surely.

People don't get "encouraged" into sailing by finding an ocean. People don't get encouraged into caving by stumbling across a cave (for, if they truly did just happen to stumble across it, they wouldn't be prepared to enter it by having caving equipment, or at the minimum a torch, rope etc..).

No. People who suddenly wake up one morning and think "Caving! - yep, I'd like to have a go at that..." do research on the internet or by asking others who then do research on the internet or through a word of mouth contact.

 

[whitelackington]

Indeed. However, on a plus side, no children have fallen to their deaths in Mendip caves.

Coral Cave early twentieth century


We recently installed a new lid 

 

[cap n chris]

Ah, yes; forgot about that. Ta.

 

[Ship-badger]

gate + key + leader + permit + fixed date written request = Some FoD

This really is beneath even a committed FoD basher like you c**tplaces. The only cave that this refers to is Otter Hole, and we really cannot be held responsible for the fact that Mother Nature only allows us to access the cave on fixed dates, i.e. tides low enough to get in. Granted, we then only make leaders available at weekends (generally), but as they are all volunteers that's not too unreasonable is it?

ALL of the other caves and mines that are gated are on private land OR on private land AND in private ownership.

As an example of how well I think the gates have helped preserve things, look at the picture of the Pom-Poms in Wigpool Iron Mine. They are not kept secret; I show them to people whenever I take them to Wigpool.

 

[Bob Smith]

It's the dog walkers that seem to think they can wander wherever they want.

do you mean dog emptiers?

 

[mike barnes]

What has happened to NigR, he seems to have disappeared. I would also like to ask him about his 'keep it quite' philosophy. When I discovered a new cave near to where he lives in South Wales, he thought it fine to sneak in just 2 weeks after it was found and conduct a survey. Subsequently, on this very website in the 'Wales' section, under 'New cave near Llygad Llycwher', (sorry, can never remember how to spell it), he offers his survey to anyone that wants it. I guess with www. standing for world wide web, he's meaning anybody in the world that wants a copy. I hope he's better at hiding the Christmas presents. It's come to my attention that after another potentially big find some years ago, NigR also sneaked in before the original discoverers could all get together to conduct their explorations.

I suggest Mr Rogers hates gates so much because they might interfere with his desire to poach any new find. It seems to me that the vast majority of cavers accept gates, as long as the key is made available to those that want it. Last year in S.Wales, several formations were broken off deliberately to be sold on the internet. Surely, the ONLY solution to conservation of any cave with readily accessible formations is a gate. Or how in 50 years time do we say to our grand children, 'This place used to be really beautiful, if only we had thought about preserving it'.

 

[NigR]

I shouldn't really give Mr Barnes the satisfaction of rising to his thinly concealed bait but I suppose I ought to correct a few factual inaccuracies and omissions. The survey he mentions was conducted around 6 weeks after the cave's discovery and we did not "sneak" anywhere. Most importantly, he fails to mention the reason we felt that a survey was necessary in the first place. As I stated at the time, this was because we had been informed by a local farmer that the intention of the discoverers was that the cave was to be gated in the immediate future (on safety, not conservation, grounds) and that access was likely to be limited to themselves only. Mr Barnes may say now that this was never his intention but I can see no valid reason why the farmer should have lied. As for his accusations of poaching, Mr Barnes fails to mention that the survey trip that he took such exception to was precisely that - a survey trip. No attempt was made to dig in the cave or to enter any of the semi-open leads that remained, so emphasising that we were not in the least bit interested in poaching his well-earned discovery. Mr Barnes was offered a copy of the survey data but he declined this offer - his prerogative. As for "anybody in the world that wants a copy", he may be interested to know that this amounted to precisely 2 people - I have yet to hear from either of them as to how impressed they were with the 43 metres of total (above water) passage length.

Finally, it would be nice if cavers from other areas at least made a token attempt not to fly in the face of local traditions regarding access when caving elsewhere. The Black Mountain has always been a gate-free caving region and there is enough depth of feeling among the local caving populace that this is always likely to remain the case.

It is also a good idea, when caving in someone else's country, to at least show a modicum of respect for the language of that country. Surely it is not too much to ask that an effort be made to check the correct spelling of the name of a cave you have visited many times? Obviously it is.

Note to future potential cave discoverers:
It is traditional (and respectful) that any new cave entrances in South Wales should be named in the native language. Passages can be called whatever you like - use Klingon if you want - but the actual name of the cave should most definitely be Welsh, particularly in an area where it is still the language of choice for many of the local people.

 

[Christian_Chourot]

Oh for goodness' sake - at least we can still get into caves with more stringent access if we want to. It's the "Access denied by landowner" that I keep reading on interesting sounding sites (like Lamb Leer) that bothers me. I don't care how many hoops I have to jump through to get access to somewhere, as long as I can (eventually) access it, that's all that matters!

 

[graham]

NigR.

Without wishing to get involved in your ongoing discussions with Mr Barnes, I would appreciate if you could answer the more general points that you have been asked in this thread, notably by MartinR

 

[Peter Burgess]

Are the most attractive caves gates because they are attractive, or are they attractive because they are gated?

Are there any caves that were once attractive but are no longer so, and have never been gated?

Are there any caves that were once attractive, but are no longer so, despite having been gated since they were discovered?

The topic title asks for solutions. I apologise for providing some questions. Perhaps the solutions are in the answers to those questions.

 

[Peter Burgess]

If there are no gates, then the protection of caves will rely 100 percent on the goodwill of cavers to act responsibly and to respect the caves they visit. Is this likely? Sorry for posing another question.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I would like people not to walk into my house, trash the furniture, nick the telly, or help themselves to my money. If I remove the front door from my house, will I be able to trust all the other residents in my town to respect my wishes while I am out at work?

 

[NigR]

Graham,

I have every intention of responding to the points raised by MartinR but I need to quote a couple of printed references in order to fully answer some of the questions he has asked. I have had a busy weekend and have not had the time to look up these references yet but rest assured that I will do so over the next couple of days.

 

[graham]

Graham,

I have every intention of responding to the points raised by MartinR but I need to quote a couple of printed references in order to fully answer some of the questions he has asked. I have had a busy weekend and have not had the time to look up these references yet but rest assured that I will do so over the next couple of days.

Thank you.

 

[graham]

Are the most attractive caves gates because they are attractive, or are they attractive because they are gated?

Both, as conservation is not the only reason for access control.

Are there any caves that were once attractive but are no longer so, and have never been gated?

Numerous, Swildon's Hole has already been mentioned in this regard, Many formations in the Burrington area have been trashed; the caves have never been controlled in this way.

Are there any caves that were once attractive, but are no longer so, despite having been gated since they were discovered?

It is difficult to think of any that have been trashed, though much wear and tear has taken place. It may be possible to relate the degree of damage to the ease of access to some extent.

 

[whitelackington]

Oh for goodness' sake - at least we can still get into caves with more stringent access if we want to. It's the "Access denied by landowner" that I keep reading on interesting sounding sites (like Lamb Leer) that bothers me. I don't care how many hoops I have to jump through to get access to somewhere, as long as I can (eventually) access it, that's all that matters!

Yes, it would be nice to cave Lamb Leer before I snuff it.
How are them Shepton boys doing?

 

[Peter Burgess]

I regret not having visited Lamb Leer when it was possible. But I have been caving long enough to have seen some caves have access eased, and others where it has changed to complete closure. These things generally come and go. I suppose the closest experience to hand I have had involves access to local mines. We waited 15 years for an opportunity to legitimately re-enter a particularly well-preserved site, and the arrangements we put in place when we were allowed to revisit have served cavers and owner well for another 18 years now. Our best preserved site is one that has had access denied or closely monitored for much of the time that caving has been a popular pastime around here. Extremely vulnerable features such as the handprints of mushroom growers where they have compacted the surface of the mushroom beds are still quite clear. In the next door site where similar features exist, and where access was more or less free for all throughout the 1970s and 80s, everything is trampled to oblivion. By being patient, and by demonstrating a responsible attitude, we now have arranged for most sites to be accessible to anyone who is happy to go through the correct and not particularly onerous procedures.

 

[Ed W]

"How are the Shepton boys doing"

Mick - you are welcome to come down and find out.  You'd better like mud though!

 

[Christian_Chourot]

"How are the Shepton boys doing"

Mick - you are welcome to come down and find out.  You'd better like mud though!

Where does the dig to get in start from then? I was looking on google maps the other day out of interest.