Agen Allwedd - Priory Road Exploration
- Thread starter marsrat
- Start date
marsrat
Active member
Afternoon.
As promised (albeit it's now out of date
), the resurvey of Priory Road (data will come soon).
Includes the grade 5 loop formed by the trafalgar dig, recent discoveries which can be made public and a survey of Daren to provide some much needed hope...
Delivered by the merry monks: Paul Stacey CSS and Andrey Kozhenkov CSS.
Yours aye,
Marsrat.
As promised (albeit it's now out of date
), the resurvey of Priory Road (data will come soon).Includes the grade 5 loop formed by the trafalgar dig, recent discoveries which can be made public and a survey of Daren to provide some much needed hope...
Delivered by the merry monks: Paul Stacey CSS and Andrey Kozhenkov CSS.
Yours aye,
Marsrat.
Cantclimbtom
Well-known member
Wow!! I've never seen Agy and D. Cilau on the same sheet before, I heard they got close, but didn't realise *how* close
Imagine one day if Agy, D Cilau and O C y Fynnon were joined
Imagine one day if Agy, D Cilau and O C y Fynnon were joined
marsrat
Active member
Ogof Llangatwg
asheshouse
Member
Nice work. Amazing complexity of passages in that small area.
Stuart France
Active member
I've speculated before, but not on here until now, that the two caves were once joined in a logical way given that the Aggy side of the present gap looks more like Daren than Aggy. There has to be a reason why these have been so difficult to re-join. There has to be a reason too for the strong draughts going in an upward direction, such as into the MOAB choke. I'm not a geologist, but hey ho... Suppose there has been a 'throw' along a fault line that post-dates the original cave formation? We see this kind of thing in caves, where a big passage runs up to a solid wall, or in a mine where coal seam is suddenly lost.
If this imagined throw shoved Daren Cilau Mark 1 to the south a bit (in a relative way) that would have moved Updweeb out of alignment with the MOAB-Grolsch axis. The attached image shows the imagined Mark 1 situation. Other things went equally out of alignment too which are off the area of this fantastic new pdf survey provided above. Of course, we are where we are, and as cavers we can only explore the here and now, i.e. the Aggy/Daren Mark 2 situation as shown in FullSurvey-9.
More geologically recent cave passage would then have formed along the imagined fault, on the axis of the suggested throw, i.e. above all the 315-317-327m points marked on the survey, which is where the MOAB and DADES draughts are going into now. Bat Bat also had a promising draught but that was lost in the process of digging there. If the throw hadn't happened then we'd have a connection to Daren by now after all this effort.
So it would be convenient if discoveries went in an upward direction somewhere on the Aggy side, into an imagined spacious well-ventilated high level series where an opportunity might present for dropping into Daren - digging down more safely that digging upwards as was tried with MOAB long ago. Alternatively, seek a connection between the tiddly passages south of MOAB choke that head for Updweeb where it is positioned now. However, that area is likely to be geologically disturbed. So either way, these are not easy propositions.
If this imagined throw shoved Daren Cilau Mark 1 to the south a bit (in a relative way) that would have moved Updweeb out of alignment with the MOAB-Grolsch axis. The attached image shows the imagined Mark 1 situation. Other things went equally out of alignment too which are off the area of this fantastic new pdf survey provided above. Of course, we are where we are, and as cavers we can only explore the here and now, i.e. the Aggy/Daren Mark 2 situation as shown in FullSurvey-9.
More geologically recent cave passage would then have formed along the imagined fault, on the axis of the suggested throw, i.e. above all the 315-317-327m points marked on the survey, which is where the MOAB and DADES draughts are going into now. Bat Bat also had a promising draught but that was lost in the process of digging there. If the throw hadn't happened then we'd have a connection to Daren by now after all this effort.
So it would be convenient if discoveries went in an upward direction somewhere on the Aggy side, into an imagined spacious well-ventilated high level series where an opportunity might present for dropping into Daren - digging down more safely that digging upwards as was tried with MOAB long ago. Alternatively, seek a connection between the tiddly passages south of MOAB choke that head for Updweeb where it is positioned now. However, that area is likely to be geologically disturbed. So either way, these are not easy propositions.
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Moonrat
New member
A really great response Stuart, thanks. Very interesting thinking this problem through from a "what if" in the past to the "what now" in the present. Various folk are back down over two days this weekend with more camps being planned in the New Year. We're working on various areas of interest so it'll be interesting to see how everything pans out with your map in mind. From your diagram it'll be interesting to see if a fault (or something) is visible crossing within the Broadside Chamber. We will of course be updating the PDf and distributing again when we've reacked the next publication point.
Do you think the two sides of the N-S fault might have changed altitudes in any way?
Do you think the two sides of the N-S fault might have changed altitudes in any way?
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
I've always assumed faulting predates (modern) cave formation given that caves are geologically young (no older than 2 million years for the Welsh caves I think and most UK caves much younger than that)?
But apparently it does maybe happen, at least in a geologically-active location such as a mountain range:
I'd assumed that small Welsh hills (even given the significant glaciation and valley-downcutting that's occurred during the lifetime of Aggy) that there's only limited tectonic activity though?
But apparently it does maybe happen, at least in a geologically-active location such as a mountain range:
I'd assumed that small Welsh hills (even given the significant glaciation and valley-downcutting that's occurred during the lifetime of Aggy) that there's only limited tectonic activity though?
Andy Farrant
Active member
There is almost certainly a fault trending NW-SE through the area, although the throw on it is probably quite small. I don't think there has been any fault movement since the caves were formed. The fault movements long predate the formation of the caves, with the last significant movement probably during the Miocene (?), but there will be a legacy of shattered rock which is why there are so many chokes. As with any choke forming collapse, the void stopes upwards, so any airflow is likely to be up and over the chokes. But if the fault is orientated as Stuart implies, then Broadside has already crossed over it. It looks to me as if the Glevum Hall-Grolsch-MOAB passage should connect through to the DADES choke, whilst Arrakis and Trafalgar connect to Archies and Updweeb. Hopefully time (and digging) will tell...
Those have always been my thoughts, Andy.
Always thought the most sure fire bet for the connection is to go through Mother of All Battles Choke to DADES Choke in Daren. Would mean lugging an awful lot of scaf down there, of course!! The passages leading to the chokes are so similar, that they must be either end of the same choke. MOAB was partially passed on the right hand side, to Rio Dreamo, which heads off South, towards Suicide Choke at the end of Up-Dweeb in Daren, which is still the closest point between the two caves, as far as I know, maybe about 15m. But the digging there was very hard work. I wondered about continuing to follow the right hand wall of MOAB, beyond the start of Rio Dreamo. I think the wall swings more to the left and lines up fairly well with the left hand wall of DADES Choke, if the surveys are lined up reasonably after the radio locations that were done in the 90s. I recall that Stuart said that the radio location showed that the chokes, and therefore the passages leading to them, were at roughly the same level. At DADES, I think all the digging done in the 90s was on the right hand side, with the dig heading North, into the blank space between the two diverging passages. Don't know if any other digging has been done there since but I seem to remember that on the left side of the choke, there was an open triangular space, created by a long slab of rock peeling away from the base of the wall and making a bit of an undercut. It was too small to get into but you could see maybe 3m along it to what looked like a slightly larger space, with a rising sandy floor. That's my two penneth anyway!
Always thought the most sure fire bet for the connection is to go through Mother of All Battles Choke to DADES Choke in Daren. Would mean lugging an awful lot of scaf down there, of course!! The passages leading to the chokes are so similar, that they must be either end of the same choke. MOAB was partially passed on the right hand side, to Rio Dreamo, which heads off South, towards Suicide Choke at the end of Up-Dweeb in Daren, which is still the closest point between the two caves, as far as I know, maybe about 15m. But the digging there was very hard work. I wondered about continuing to follow the right hand wall of MOAB, beyond the start of Rio Dreamo. I think the wall swings more to the left and lines up fairly well with the left hand wall of DADES Choke, if the surveys are lined up reasonably after the radio locations that were done in the 90s. I recall that Stuart said that the radio location showed that the chokes, and therefore the passages leading to them, were at roughly the same level. At DADES, I think all the digging done in the 90s was on the right hand side, with the dig heading North, into the blank space between the two diverging passages. Don't know if any other digging has been done there since but I seem to remember that on the left side of the choke, there was an open triangular space, created by a long slab of rock peeling away from the base of the wall and making a bit of an undercut. It was too small to get into but you could see maybe 3m along it to what looked like a slightly larger space, with a rising sandy floor. That's my two penneth anyway!
Moonrat
New member
Thanks chaps, you're all most enlightening. I have a question which has been bugging me/us. I had already thought that the wiggly passage heading "down" towards Updweeb wasn't called "MOAB" but it probably referred to upper boulder choke containing bent scaffolding adorned with lots of bang wire. Is the lower passage really called "Rio Dreamo" (as I wish not to rename other's passages) and when was this dug and by whom? We've been trying to ascertain a timeline of exploration in certain parts of the cave and this area has us stumped a little.
Hi Moonrat. All of the naming in the early 90s extension at the end of Priory Road was done by Martyn Farr and he wanted to be topical! The breakthrough from Birthday Surprise happened during the run-up to the first gulf war. Saddam Hussein was promising a 'Mother of all Battles' against the coalition forces and it was said that he would be sheltering in his Bunker so that's what provided two of the names. Mother of All Battles (MOAB) is the choke in Sick Parrot Chamber.
The first digging, to try to carry on from the new extension, was upwards into MOAB choke. This was pursued until a large space was created in the Choke, which then became too unstable to continue with. It was towards the end of this period that I got involved.
Efforts then concentrated on the bunker, until the bad air became too difficult to deal with.
Attention then switched back to MOAB choke. When the breakthrough into Sick Parrot Chamber occurred, a draughting space, between the right wall of the chamber and the choke, had been noted. This had been covered up by spoil from the upwards digging in the choke. The spoil heap was rearranged and access regained to the draughting space. This was followed, rapidly digging through the choke, to discover an initially walking height passage, heading South towards Up-Dweeb. Martyn called this Rio Dreamo, which was his take on the outcome of the Rio Climate Conference, that had recently concluded. Rio Dreamo was dug, with spoil being dumped along the passage near the start, reducing its height. Digging here proved to be very difficult and this lead was abandoned too.
The last digging of this particular effort in Aggy happened further back in Birthday Surprise and Severn Beach but these didn't come to anything. The main diggers then took a Busman's Holiday from digging in Aggy and moved to Antler Passage in Daren! I only helped out once on the Antler Passage digs.
The first digging, to try to carry on from the new extension, was upwards into MOAB choke. This was pursued until a large space was created in the Choke, which then became too unstable to continue with. It was towards the end of this period that I got involved.
Efforts then concentrated on the bunker, until the bad air became too difficult to deal with.
Attention then switched back to MOAB choke. When the breakthrough into Sick Parrot Chamber occurred, a draughting space, between the right wall of the chamber and the choke, had been noted. This had been covered up by spoil from the upwards digging in the choke. The spoil heap was rearranged and access regained to the draughting space. This was followed, rapidly digging through the choke, to discover an initially walking height passage, heading South towards Up-Dweeb. Martyn called this Rio Dreamo, which was his take on the outcome of the Rio Climate Conference, that had recently concluded. Rio Dreamo was dug, with spoil being dumped along the passage near the start, reducing its height. Digging here proved to be very difficult and this lead was abandoned too.
The last digging of this particular effort in Aggy happened further back in Birthday Surprise and Severn Beach but these didn't come to anything. The main diggers then took a Busman's Holiday from digging in Aggy and moved to Antler Passage in Daren! I only helped out once on the Antler Passage digs.
If you're interested in the timeline, it's worth me mentioning that digging in The Bunker and the upwards dig in MOAB Choke, happened contemporaneously. My first trip helping out, involved carrying scaf down there but then digging in The Bunker. My second trip was basically sitting in Sick Parrot chamber, while the Donovan brothers attempted to shore up the dig in the choke!
i think it goes
Member
Speaking of the OCAF-Daren connection, is anyone currently digging there? / What is the consensus on it?
Jester
New member
Kind of. A Mendip based team have made a start on a new dig recently at the closest known point, but other projects have meant only a couple of sessions have been done so far.
CSS members have been digging in Daren for years looking for more cave to the east. This is mainly looking for new cave, but any development in this direction would also close the gap to OCAF.
As well as the above, something on my to do list is to have a look at the Lower Series in OCAF. Perhaps that's seen less attention than the Daren side of that empty bit on the survey.
marsrat
Active member
Is this the Mike Kushy dig by the by?
Jester
New member
Oui
