BCA expedition insurance

[damian]

I know its not in BCA's interest but if they could look in to companies that provide adequate cover and the types of expeds they are suitable for. It would make us all that bit reassured or not 

I liked your suggestion here, caverholic, and have put it to David Judson (Legal & Insurance Officer). He has said that he reckons he could do this if people could provide him with copies of the various policies they'd like him to look at. Now that strikes me as a very good offer.

So, perhaps people could send me a copy of, for example, the FFS policy, the Snowcard Expedition policy, the ADAC one, the Austrian Alpine one etc and I'll see what David can do for you. If things are in German, I might be persuaded to translate them (although not if, as I fear, they run to pages and pages!)

 

[DaveR]

When I get the policy I'll forward it.

 

[damian]

When I get the policy I'll forward it.

Anyone else got one they are able to forward me?

 

[DavidGibson]

I was looking at the info on the BCRA page, which gives the Towergate info, but no names or numbers. The BCA site does indeed give much better info. For anyone finding the info via the BCRA site, it might be useful to add a link to direct them to the relevent BCA page which gives full info?

Now done.  Thanks for pointing it out.  The reason there was no link on the BCRA site is that, at the time the page was written, there was no info on the BCA site to link to.

 

[MatthiasM]

Maybe interesting for any cavers with ambitions in Austria..

The membership in any of austrian caving clubs which are member of V?H (austrian caving assosiacion, see http://www.hoehle.org) includes also an insurance for costs related to accidents and rescue - see http://www.hoehle.org/versicherung.php. It is limited to about 18.000 ? for invalidiy and about 18.000 ? rescue costs and pays only if there are no other insurances. If you have another insurance which may refuse payment with "high risk sport"accidents, this one will definitely pay as they know what caving is.

And be careful, insurances from alpine clubs exclude sometimes explicitely "expeditions" (what ever this may be - already just 3 day bivouac in Hirlatz? 3 Months in Meghalaya?).

Regards
Matthias

 

[graham]

"Expeditions" would need to be clearly defined indeed. Possibly a valid definition in these purposes - just for discussion's sake - is that an expedition is a visit to an area where no formal relevant rescue organisation exists.

 

[MatthiasM]

OK, concerning the insurance I have as member of Deutscher Alpenverein, there are "expeditions" explicitely excluded, but normal activities like mountaineering, climbing, hiking are covered worldwide, and no word, whether it has to happen on top or in/under the mountains. Especially with this insurance, I decided not to ask further - there is an german proverb "keine schlafenden Hunde wecken"... :-[ Worst case could be, if they really understand what caving is, they could it exclude totally. I just rely on the very very small number of real cave accident and thus, that they would (if it happens) not make special trouble with caving.

 

[graham]

Which would be a bit of a bugger if they learn what caving is when a claim arrives on the desk and they say "sorry, no that's excluded under clause 37bii".

What is your worst case? That you cannot get insurance because the insurers will not cover you or that the insurance you do get is worthless because when the question is asked they will refuse to pay out.

 

[MatthiasM]

The worst case for me is, that after an accident all insurances were worthless, because none would pay anything (That's last not least the reason why I am an insured member of Alpenverein AND paid in the Solidarit?tsfond of the German VdhK which is in fact a pot with money for accidents with remaining, uncovered costs for the cavers AND are member of an Austrian caving club)
The worst case for all cavers would be, if they would nowhere get any (or affordable) insurance which expliciteley includes or explicitely not excludes caving.

Concerning Deutscher Alpenverein (Insurance is Elvia, an Allianz daughter): If they really learn what caving is, they could if they want, exclude it in their insurance conditions. Currently, "expeditions" are excluded, but nothing special about caving at all. If I fall tomorrow in a cave, and it was nothing they could sort out as "expedition", they would surely pay as if it was an "normal" mountaineering accident, and, surely depending on the amount, they would later think about excluding caving within their conditions. As the insurance from the Austrian V?H is also at Allianz (Austrian branch), I'm quite sure there are enough people at Allianz who know exactly what caving is.

Regards
Matthias

PS.: Concerning Germany, maybe interesting, cave rescue in Bavaria is meanwhile an official part of official alpine rescue (Bayerische Bergwacht, belongs to Red Cross) and thus, if you are injured or need any other medical help, not just stuck or lost, and if you are as german person insured in the official, statuatory health insurance, all rescue costs including transport to the next suitable hospital with any amount of rescue staff, divers etc. would be paid from the insurance with a "flat rate" which was negotiated between the Bergwacht and the insurances.

If you are in other states in Germany, there are other options. In Baden-W?rttemberg are two more or less "official" cave rescue organisations (H?hlenrettung Baden-W?rttemberg and Malteser H?hlenrettung) which work together with the local caving clubs and the official rescue but will charge the rescued persons separately (but mostly modest prices). In some other states exists no official cave rescue, and thus, you (or your insurance) would pay for the normal rescue on surface as usual, and if you are pulled out by firefighters, this part would be mostly free, and also if you are pulled out by any (mostly professionally working, but unofficial) cave rescue from local caving clubs, this would be also often free as they aren't allowed to charge anything. They would surely be happy with a donation, if you were happy with their rescue work. :

PPS: Im not a lawyer and no insurance guy. Thus, don't nail me down if something I wrote is wrong...

 

[DaveR]

A quick update;
Snowcard requested a detailed written statement of what we were actually doing. I specified that is was a caving expedition involving us 2 Brits, together with 6 locally based cavers undertaking original exploration in new caves on Vancouver Island, Canada. I stated that cave rescue in the area is free (as in the UK) but it was a remote area requiring helicopter access (especially in the case of an injured person) and that some team members are BCCRO members (British Columbia CRO). I also stated that both people requiring cover each had over 15 years caving experience in the UK and abroad.
With this info Snowcard decided there was no greater risk than the usual Level 3 policy, so no additional cost from the 'tourist caving' option.
Seems a sensible approach to look at each case on it's merits. I suspect someone going to somewhere politically unstable with 6 months experience might pay more.

 

[MatthiasM]

Ah, yes, that means, an insurance which knows, what caving is AND is willing to calculate (and bill) the individual risks may be the best choice (and probably an expensive one for a beginner!?). If you ask exactly these questions a rather huge insurance which zillions of customers, which does NOT know much about caving (or just what you read in the rainbow press after spectacular accidents) or is not willing to think about individual risks, they could make a quick&dirty decision and just exclude caving totally. That is what I meant by "keine schlafenden Hunde wecken" (directly translated "don't wake sleeping dogs", exists that proverb in English, too?).

 

[graham]

Indeed, yes Matthias, but would you rather that they made the quick and dirty decision on receiving the claim, on the basis that they had not been fully informed?

And yes, that proverb is just about the same in English. 

 

[DaveR]

I think in this case, the manager (who I also spoke to direct) looked at the case and decided that (a) we were at no more risk of an accident than "anyone" caving. I use the phrase "anyone" to mean that in his judgement our level of experience outweighed the increased risk of exploratory caving over tourist caving, perhaps by a less experienced caver. Hope this comes over clearly; I mean something along the lines of; a very experienced caver might be safer in a hard cave than a novice in an easy one.
Secondly, the fact that we are in a developed country, and there is an established rescue system there and it is provided at no charge, means that if we needed to be rescued there would be no cost to the insurer other than healthcare and repatriation, which I guess anyone would incur, no matter what their holiday involved.
The cover is 'Worldwide', but their decision making may have been based on the above factors.

Anyway, I'm happy we have adequate cover, they have a written record of our intention, I have a quote reference based on that info, and it cost a lot less than the other option.

 

[spiller]

Keep persevering with the Towergate thing - they are a chaotic and disorganised business - I
used to work for them but left in disgust. The good thing is that they are composed of lots of little businesses and some can be really good and if they've got the cover needed then it's worth going after.

Spiller

 

[potholer]

I don't think Snowcard charged me any extra when I got expedition cover (for Slovenia) a few years ago.

I did explain the 'expedition' in my particular context generally involved only going a few hundred metres into new passage per day, and that many people (me included) had been going to the same area, and indeed the same caves, for years, and so in quite a few ways, it was probably rather safer than much European tourist caving.

 

[ian mckenzie]

I have never had any insurance while on caving expeditions because it is impossible to get here in Canada.  What can you do, but just go?

 

[MrSmart]

Towergate are a fantastic insurance provider. Perhaps Spiller left the company because he/she didn't fit in and couldn't keep up with the fast moving pace of Towergate. Nobody leaves Towergate in disgust unless they have been sacked, perhaps Spiller is not telling the whole truth of the story. Over 5,000 other staff are very happy at Towergate, fact.

 

[Juniper]

Well, they've certainly got at least one very loyal employee.

More seriously, perhaps our two first-time posters could take their discussion elsewhere?
To be fair, even 'Spiller' didn't say 'don't bother', just that things were patchy.

 

[ken]

to the topic of insurance.....I have a private insurance along with my Alpineverein insurance. I was told ALL costs up to a certain amount would be paid. I asked about caving and mountaineering accidents and the reply was " doesn't matter, it will be paid for"
I'll see if I can find the policy in the next couple of days and read the fine print.

 

[MrSmart]

Juniper, if it were to become a discussion then yes you are right, it would be best taken elsewhere, I agree with you on that.

However so far, there has been one reply posting in a public forum to an initial public posting, perfectly acceptable and most needed as the original posting was made publicly. If a discussion were to commence, as in further postings, then yes you would be right in suggesting that it could be taken privately rather than publicly. Sometimes, public postings need to replied to publicly.

In advance to an anticipated response, first-time posters on one forum aren't necessarily first-time posters on 'forums' in general.

With regards.