Capping

[susie]

After a couple of years of hesitation, I have created a page on capping, mainly because I feel that it is probably better having a safe guide to the technique rather than people just trying it out without guidance.

http://ukcaving.com/wiki/index.php/Capping

If the general view is that the page should be removed, I'll be happy to remove it.

If anyone feels that anything I've said can be improved or corrected, please do not hesitate to dive in and change it. It is important that anything that is published is as accurate and safe as possible.

 

[Rhys]

Good work. Such a page has been in the back of my mind for a similar amount of time - I think it's a good idea. I'll probably add  a few details.

Opinions and techniques do vary a bit between diggers, teams, and areas. Hopefully we can settle with some general safe and sensible guidlines.

Rhys

 

[SamT]

Hmm - I know there has been a general policy of not 'publishing' such info on UKcaving (read public sites).

Maybe its time to debate a change. It would be interesting to hear the opinion of those such as Nick Williams and those involved with BCA and some of its pertinent sub groups.

 

[Rhys]

There was an e-mail debate in a relevant BCA subgroup a little while ago. Some argued it was best to promote safe practice because people are using the technique. Others argued that the group should not even publicly acknowledge that the technique exists at all.

There is now quite a bit on the web about capping techniques. Personally, I don't see any harm in promoting safe practice, when people are using the technique week-in-week-out and could otherwise end up learning things the hard way.

Anyone else got a view?

Rhys

 

[susie]

Hmm - I know there has been a general policy of not 'publishing' such info on UKcaving (read public sites).

You may well be right, but I was actually motivated by a personal messaging conversation that I had with Bubba fourteen months ago in which he said:

"There's already plenty of discussion on capping online, a quick google turns up a load of links. If some of it is bad advice then surely how to do it properly is information that should be disseminated to prevent accidents occurring?"

 

[estelle]

"There's already plenty of discussion on capping online, a quick google turns up a load of links. If some of it is bad advice then surely how to do it properly is information that should be disseminated to prevent accidents occurring?"

As caps aren't exactly that difficult to come by for cavers, i think it is healthy to promote and discuss best practices, because otherwise there will always be some idiots who obtain them and use them dangerously and end up injured. It may be worth an addition to the wiki page about training and taking advice and demonstration from others who use them regularly and have good experience with capping before attempting yourself. Aside from the actual physical technique of doing the capping, there is a lot to be gained from watching examples of things like the angles of penetration used to get the best out of capping as a tool in digging.

 

[SamT]

Hmm - I know there has been a general policy of not 'publishing' such info on UKcaving (read public sites).

You may well be right, but I was actually motivated by a personal messaging conversation that I had with Bubba fourteen months ago in which he said:

"There's already plenty of discussion on capping online, a quick google turns up a load of links. If some of it is bad advice then surely how to do it properly is information that should be disseminated to prevent accidents occurring?"

True , the sentiment is entirely understandable and worthy.

Having been in contact with a few notable people  today over this, it seems the wiki page is considered a good idea. The aforementioned BCA subgroup are concerned with the use of HE, and whilst agree with the sentiment of disseminating good practice/technique etc,  would rather not be associated with any published online information on capping.

Seems like the wiki is an appropriate medium - Go Susie 

 

[AndyF]

I think in the times we are in then any attention drawn to this and other techniques is best avoided on public pages.

Those who need to know can readily discuss it amongst themselves and tend to know some existing users. There is no need I feel for a public page.

Its only going to take one tabloid headline to bring a whole world of pain down on the digging community

 

[Rhys]

I don't believe a tabloid journalist would understand the page or know what a nail gun cartridge is. There's not really a suitable collection of  obvious keywords on it to attract attention from non-cavers googling. No exciting videos or graphic photos. Low risk, I think. 

 

[AndyF]

I don't believe a tabloid journalist would understand the page or know what a nail gun cartridge is. There's not really a suitable collection of  obvious keywords on it to attract attention from non-cavers googling. No exciting videos or graphic photos. Low risk, I think.

They know what "explode", "penetrate flesh", "ricocheting", "hazardous" and "cartridges" mean.....

Low risk - maybe, pointless risk, certainly....

 

[Hughie]

I'm with AndyF on this.

 

[dunc]

I think in the times we are in then any attention drawn to this and other techniques is best avoided on public pages.

Can't see the fuss, a quick look on Wikipedia brings up some information, dig a bit deeper and there's loads of references to capping from club newsletters online and there's even a video on YouTube.. Like it or not it is public already!

 

[paul]

I think in the times we are in then any attention drawn to this and other techniques is best avoided on public pages.

Can't see the fuss, a quick look on Wikipedia brings up some information, dig a bit deeper and there's loads of references to capping from club newsletters online and there's even a video on YouTube.. Like it or not it is public already!

I'd have to agree with you there. On balance, if cavers are going to have a go at capping anyway, it's probably best that they have some sort of guidance.

 

[graham]

Its only going to take one tabloid headline to bring a whole world of pain down on the digging community

But that tabloid headline would only appear had there been an "incident". If that happens then the existence or otherwise of a wiki page will be largely irrelevant.

 

[bubba]

The tabloids would have to be pretty desperate to run a story about people splitting boulders, incident or no incident.

 

[Roger W]

S'not just the splitting of boulders.  It's the possibility of headlines like "Caver blows goolies off trying to split boulder"

 

[Stevo]

We had a rescue in Ireland (right on the border) where the Police overheard (wrongly) that we were going to use explosive - we needed  to cap one of the boulders leading to the trapped caver. Strangely the police weren't that fussed considering it was right in the middle of bandit country.

Anyway the media got hold of this 'explosive' incident but when the capping technique was explained to them they got rather bored and didn't ask any more questions.

The tabloids would have to be pretty desperate to run a story about people splitting boulders, incident or no incident.

 

[AndyF]

Who here thinks that capping is a "legal" activity....?

 

[graham]

Who here thinks that capping is a "legal" activity....?

I am not aware of any laws that it specifically breaches. Are you?

 

[SamT]

From the hilti data sheet for their cartridges which are classified under UN0323 (Cartridges, power device)

The following legislation / standards contain information which relates to Hilti cartridges,
? The Health and Safety at Work act 1974
? Explosives Act 1875
? The Classification and labelling of Explosives Regulations 1983
? BS 4078 1987 Powder actuated fixing systems. Part 1 Code of practice for safe use
? The Control of Explosives Regulations 1991
? The Manufacture and Storage of Explosives Regulations 2005
? The Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations 2004 (SI 568/2004)
? The Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment (Amendment) Regulations 2005 (SI No. 1732/2005)
12. IMPORTANT

and

Use
Cartridges must be used only in the approved powder-actuated tools for which they are intended

It seems probable that any of the regulations/acts above and the word MISUSE could be combined to bring forward a prosecution if the authorities so wished.