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Carbon offsetting for expeditions

mikem

Well-known member
Have you watched his linked video?

The polar bear statistics are somewhat suspect, as they are struggling & moving more towards the edges of their habitat, so encountering humans more often than they used to, but I agree that carbon-offsetting is a (unfunny) joke, unless you do it all yourself.

We are no better off than the Canary Islands (from the House of Commons Library):
The service industries accounted for 79% of total UK economic output (Gross Value Added) in April–June 2023 and 83% of employment in January–March 2023.
 

thehungrytroglobite

Well-known member
I don't think carbon offsetting is a bad thing. Although I am dubious about *some* of the companies that claim to do it for you, I would much rather spend a few days planting native trees in the highlands instead - or by potholes in the Dales, where the fences might give the young trees a chance against all the sheep! I don't think, however, that carbon offsetting is enough by itself.

There is a risk of placing too much emphasis on individual change, when what is really needed is system change. Granted, individual change is still important - and changing our own habits can help encourage others to change theirs, thus creating a greater shift. But for some, individual shifts are limited by a lack of system & policy change. When people talk about individual changes to battle the climate crisis, they often talk about not flying, eating local produce, becoming vegan, using public transport, reducing plastic use (for example shopping at those places that give you grains etc in your own container). But how can someone in rural England rely on public transport without a drastic increase (and nationalisation) in the provision of public transport, and reduction in prices? Perhaps the government can tax the aviation industry more and put the money into local public transport + building cycle lanes. How can someone eat local produce that is 5 times more expensive than the flown in goods in Aldi when they're trying to feed their kids on a minimum wage income? Bashing people for not making individual changes often occurs far too much without considering the limitations they are experiencing to these changes.

Climate breakdown is so catastrophic that it is now beyond the point of being irreversible. It is so bad that even if we did a U-turn now, and not a single plane ever flew again, not a single car ever drove again, we would not be able to reverse the damage and would merely slow down it's progression. The richest 1% of people are responsible for twice the amount of emissions as the poorest 50% of people (cited from an Oxford report). I feel, along with many others my age, so disheartened by the number of climate deniers that still exists despite it being the greatest global threat we are facing. We feel disheartened by the lack of calls for full-blown system change (the current system will always allow commercial capitalism to remain the priority). I could talk forever on further relevant topics: the integration of community resilience, the destructive nature of modern farming practices, etc etc.

Back to expeditions: I actually flew out to the CUCC expo this year, though it was just to meet people there and catch a lift to Slovenia, rather than actually take part in the expedition. One reason for this was that it was the cheapest option. I am unemployed and have just spent all of my savings on my Master's degree so really could not afford anything more expensive. Again, if aviation was taxed more, this probably wouldn't have been the cheapest option. It made the most sense time wise. My insurance had a 41 (or maybe it was 45, can't remember) day limit so I had to stay within this boundary. Due to logistics of meeting my partner abroad during his annual leave, and the dates of the Wessex Berger trip being changed, etc etc, I couldn't change the dates at the end of my holiday. And my friends were driving out to slovenia on a set day. So the cheapest, and most time efficient option, was flying. This was something that did make me feel quite uncomfortable- I hadn't flown since before 2018 and I am not proud that I did. I swing between thinking 'nothing I do will make a difference, so what's the point in trying' and thinking that 'well, my individual changes probably won't make any difference but at least I will feel less guilty'. Personally, I would just as happily go on an expedition to Applecross as to Austria. It's not deep Alpine caving, but there's a lot of new cave to be found there (and lots that has been found in the last few years, largely thanks to the GSG / RRCPC), it would be cheaper & much more accessible to those with less money, and would be good craic with friends.
 

mikem

Well-known member
You won't get system change without increased individual change though. However, there's also a risk of placing too much reliance on one indicator (in this case CO2 - as the video points out, historically when CO2 was at it's highest the planet repeatedly started cooling down & the opposite when it was lowest)

This just came up on Twitter:
 

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
I think we are very firmly at the 'crank' end of climate change denial here, this is not science
Yes, but it's harmless enough.
He describes himself as a polymath inside the first minute, so reasonable people are going to think "w*nker" and either switch off or go on watching in the hope of being entertained.
The rest are beyond converting anyway.
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
However, there's also a risk of placing too much reliance on one indicator (in this case CO2 - as the video points out, historically when CO2 was at it's highest the planet repeatedly started cooling down & the opposite when it was lowest)
Let's not throw away the basic physics of greenhouse gases which has been known about for 200 years.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
No it doesn't, Ok the difference may be negligible but it's an incorrect statement nonetheless.
Wow I didn't actually know that so obviously will have to use a different expression instead. Certainly aeroplane fuel tanks are massively less heavy as the journey approaches its destination which is what I was alluding to, obviously not quite as accurately as I'd thought!

As an aside, I purchased a flight yesterday and noticed there's an option to pay to offset carbon. Hadn't noticed that before.
 

Speleofish

Active member
The difficulty I have with carbon off-setting is that it mostly seems to come down to planting trees. In the UK, this seems to involve buying random bits of land and planting (possibly inappropriate) trees, often in places that could be valuable for arable farming. I'm not sure how many acres of new trees one would need to offset an average western lifestyle, but I doubt if the UK is big enough to grow enough trees to compensate for the whole population's CO2 emissions. Even if it were, we would be able to grow even fewer crops so we'd have to import even more food (thus increasing our overall CO2 production).

Off-setting by planting trees overseas merely moves the problem elsewhere - trading potential food-producing land for trees. This may be OK in the short term but, given that climate change is likely to reduce the amount of land available for farming or forestry (and make many areas between the tropics uninhabitable, so effectively unavailable for cultivation) this doesn't seem a viable long term option either....

I suppose kelp and sea grass plantations may contribute but I think the reality of carbon off-setting is psychological (or, worse, an opportunity for carbon traders to make lots of money to little benefit). If you believe in climate change and really want to do something about it, you should change your lifestyle (and probably dig a cave in your back garden).
 

mikem

Well-known member
Let's not throw away the basic physics of greenhouse gases which has been known about for 200 years.
Indeed, I'm not saying it isn't important, but it's just one factor in the equation (& scientists still don't understand a lot of them) - CO2 only makes up 0.03% of the atmosphere, which is only 3% of the amount of water vapour (1% of total) up there, which is also a greenhouse gas...

Better options for salving your conscience might be volunteering for a local nature reserve, or donating to an appropriate charity that are doing something for the environment.
 
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langcliffe

Well-known member
Indeed, I'm not saying it isn't important, but it's just one factor in the equation (& scientists still don't understand a lot of them) - CO2 only makes up 0.03% of the atmosphere, which is only 3% of the amount of water vapour (1% of total) up there, which is also a greenhouse gas...
I suspect that you haven't studied the subject to any depth...
 

mikem

Well-known member
I don't know why the temperature & CO2 concentrations dropped again each time they have risen in the past - something must have changed that wasn't one or the other. I know that warm water absorbs more CO2 than cold, hence tropical caves are larger than temperate ones
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
I don't know why the temperature & CO2 concentrations dropped again each time they have risen in the past - something must have changed that wasn't one or the other. I know that warm water absorbs more CO2 than cold, hence tropical caves are larger than temperate ones
Wrong, I'm afraid. Warm water absorbs less CO2 than cold water. That's one of the unfortunate feedbacks from rising temperatures.
 

Andy Farrant

Active member
It is amazing how many people think that by watching a few Youtube video or reading a few online blogs, they become an authoritative expert on climate science. There is an awful lot of crap and misinformation out there on the web. It is complex matter, so I rather defer to the experts, the real climate scientists, who know far more than me (and I consider myself reasonably well informed). It is clear that there have been massive advances in our understanding of the Earth's climate over the past couple of decades, in part from work done looking at palaeoclimate records from stalagmites, and helped by advances in computer modelling and satellite data. What I find scary is that many of the predictions that were made about climate change are coming to pass. I never expected to see temperatures over 40 deg C or wildfires in the UK like we had last summer, and recent global events are far worse... Yet our political leaders act as if nothing has changed. The solutions are well known, but it requires political and social will. Planting trees helps, as does restoring peat bogs, but needs to be done at scale. We need to use massively more renewable sources of energy and electrify things as much as possible. Rather than using carbon offset schemes, you are probably better off using that money to invest in heat pumps, electric cars or other things to reduce your own carbon footprint, encourage others to do the same, and lobby your MP. The sooner Rishi and others realize its not OK to fly to Cornwall on a private jet for a photo-op the better....
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
Since 2000 world population has increased by almost 30% from 6.14bn to 8.05bn; this obviously isn't an issue as politicians don't seem to mention it; however we are urged to cut down on single use plastics (e.g. plastic straws, poly bags) and try to magically find about £50k each to buy a battery car. Perhaps consider lobbying your MP to cease any/all "incentives" (perceived, or real) which make people think having children is a good idea.
 

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
Andy F. You mention political leaders. Would that they were - political followers is more apt nowadays.
As has been mentioned several times on this forum, they know that if they suggest anything that comes close to being immediately effective they wouldn't have a hope of being reelected.
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
Since 2000 world population has increased by almost 30% from 6.14bn to 8.05bn; this obviously isn't an issue as politicians don't seem to mention it; however we are urged to cut down on single use plastics (e.g. plastic straws, poly bags) and try to magically find about £50k each to buy a battery car. Perhaps consider lobbying your MP to cease any/all "incentives" (perceived, or real) which make people think having children is a good idea.
Try the Green Party.
 
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