Caving Illnesses

[Katie]

I wondered how many lead miners got lung cancer?

I remember seeing an amazing fact at the PDMHS Mining Musuem about life expectancy.
Apparently in the early 1800s the average life expectancy for a Derbyshire Lead miner was 64 years. Whereas for a man in an urban area at the time it was 30.
So looks like lead mining and living in a rural area was much safer than city life!

 

[cap n chris]

Nice spot, ChrisB. Coincidentally I was thinking just ten minutes ago that counting bq per year wasn't any use as there needed to be a time stipulation, so you're ahead of the game there. Agree with your SI unit observation too.

 

[steviet_scg]

Re: Radon: Obviously assessing exposure is going to be tricky and assessing confounders equally so - might not have been smokers but secondhand smoke was not always a small risk.

Anyway, public health shouldn't (and doesn't) depend on perfect evidence. Happy to put some feelers out to see if I can generate some interest - might be able to find a public health registrar or two that could help out. @Bob Mehew - would you be the best person to liaise with offline?

 

[mrodoc]

Funnily enough many years ago our local public health consultant wrote to me wanting to research radon absorption in cavers by getting volunteers to go into a cave and provide blood samples. I might still have the letter somewhere. I suggested he would have trouble finding volunteers from the caving community. There was a lot of concern at the time about caves being closed due to radon.

 

[2xw]

On the basis of the BCA exposure limit how many hours should I spend in an average house in Eyam?

 

[mikem]

If anyone has access to technical journals from year 2000 (& can read my writing):

 

[andrewmcleod]

On the basis of the BCA exposure limit how many hours should I spend in an average house in Eyam?

Sitting at home all day isn't good for you

One good way to reduce your annual dose of background radiation is to go live on an oil rig near the equator.

 

[ChrisB]

live on an oil rig near the equator

My brother did that. From what he told me, there was a good chance of reducing his lifetime dose of radiation by reducing his lifetime.

 

[Bob Mehew]

On the basis of the BCA exposure limit how many hours should I spend in an average house in Eyam?

The Radon Action Level is 200 Bq/m^3 above which one is recommended to take action to reduce the level of radon to a target level of 100 Bq/m^3. Crudely, given one is present in your home for say 10 hours a day, the action level is equivalent to an annual exposure of 730,000 hours Bq/m^3. So that is close to the level recommended for cavers. I can't immediately find levels measured in houses around Eyam but the Radon map indicates that more than 30% of the houses in that area are likely to have radon levels above the action level.

One good way to reduce your annual dose of background radiation is to go live on an oil rig near the equator.

For what it is worth, oil formations usually contain Naturally Occurring Radioactive Materials to a level that the drill bits often require decontaminating when they are brought back onshore. The simplest way of keeping your radon dose low is to live in a tent.

 

[mikem]

Bob has translated my scrawl (with additional info):

Radon concentration variations in a Mendip cave cluster
Sperrin, M, Gillmore, G and Denman, T (2001) 'Radon concentration variations in a Mendip cave cluster.' Environmental Management and Health, 12 (5). pp. 476-482. ISSN 0956-6163
-------------------
An initial assessment of radiation doses received from radon by recreational cavers in the Mendip Hills, UK
November 2000 Fresenius Environmental Bulletin 9(11):766-773
Authors:
M. Sperrin
Antony Denman
The University of Northampton
P.S. Phillips
----------------------
Estimating the dose from radon to recreational cave users in the Mendips, UK
June 2000Journal of Environmental Radioactivity 49(2):235-240
DOI: 10.1016/S0265-931X(99)00108-3
Authors:
Malcolm Sperrin
Antony Denman
The University of Northampton
Paul S. Phillips
---------------
Radon Hazards, Geology, and Exposure of Cave Users: A Case Study and Some Theoretical Perspectives

Gavin K. Gillmore a 1, Malcom Sperrin b, Paul Phillips a, Antony Denman a c

2000 Ecotoxicology & Environmental Safety 46(3) 279 - 288
----------------------
RADON-PRONE GEOLOGICAL FORMATIONS AND IMPLICATIONS FOR CAVE USERS

Authors: Gillmore, Gavin K.; Sperrin, Malcolm; Phillips, Paul; Denman, Antony

Source: Technology, Volume 7, Number 6, 2000, pp. 645-655
---------------
I remember the work being done back then, but never saw any of the results.

 

[mikem]

That research did warrant a mention in:

In a hole

AS IF caving were not dangerous enough, regular cavers are also exposed to high levels of the radioactive gas, radon. Formed naturally by the decay of uranium in granite, it can build up to hazardous levels in enclosed spaces. Researchers from University College Northampton and Princess Margaret...

www.newscientist.com

 

[michael.11]

For lyme disease there is a prophylaxis threatment in form of a single doxylicine pill taken within 72 hours after a bite.
In Israel we take it regularly because of a different tick-borne replacing fever abundant in our dry caves (which I had myself)

 

[Speleofish]

Be aware that doxycycline can cause a photosensitivity rash - more common with prolonged courses than single doses but it can occur (affects about 3% of people). General advice is to cover up and wear high factor sunscreen if you're out in the sun in the first few days after taking it.

 

[2xw]

The BCA Radon report says that a non-smoker non-caver living in a radon free house has a 0.4% chance of dying of lung cancer by age 75, and if they live in a house with radon levels at 400Bqm3 this risk rises to 0.7% chance (0.5% for 100Bqm3).

If my house is roughly 200Bqm3 and the mean Peak District concentration is 8258Bqm3, is one hour in the average Peak cave equivalent to 41 hours in my house? Is that how that works?

The max measured Peak concentration looks to be 46080Bqm3, is this equivalent to 231 hours in my 200Bqm3 house? An hour in Giants is roughly the same dose as 2 weeks in my house?


Do I get the same dose form my house in a year as I get from 26 hours in the most radioactive cave in the world? Therefore probably raising my chance of dying from lung cancer at the age of 75 from about 0.5% to about 0.7%?


Presumably not living in a radon house you'd be increasing your chances from 0.4% to 0.7%?


As regards known non-smokers dying from lung cancer, the same BCA report quotes stats from the AGIR indicating that out of the current BCA membership of 6000 ish we would expect 24 lifelong non-smokers who live in non-radon homes to die of lung cancer (or 42 if they all lived in Stoney Middleton)

 

[mikem]

Avoid Cornish granite:

UKradon - UK maps of radon

www.ukradon.org

 

[Bob Mehew]

The BCA Radon report says that a non-smoker non-caver living in a radon free house has a 0.4% chance of dying of lung cancer by age 75, and if they live in a house with radon levels at 400Bqm3 this risk rises to 0.7% chance (0.5% for 100Bqm3).

If my house is roughly 200Bqm3 and the mean Peak District concentration is 8258Bqm3, is one hour in the average Peak cave equivalent to 41 hours in my house? Is that how that works?

The max measured Peak concentration looks to be 46080Bqm3, is this equivalent to 231 hours in my 200Bqm3 house? An hour in Giants is roughly the same dose as 2 weeks in my house?


Do I get the same dose form my house in a year as I get from 26 hours in the most radioactive cave in the world? Therefore probably raising my chance of dying from lung cancer at the age of 75 from about 0.5% to about 0.7%?


Presumably not living in a radon house you'd be increasing your chances from 0.4% to 0.7%?


As regards known non-smokers dying from lung cancer, the same BCA report quotes stats from the AGIR indicating that out of the current BCA membership of 6000 ish we would expect 24 lifelong non-smokers who live in non-radon homes to die of lung cancer (or 42 if they all lived in Stoney Middleton)

The simple response is no because as you cite, the value of the risk is a "chance of dying of lung cancer by age 75" so the time factor (of hours, albeit in this case many tens of thousands of hours) is implicitly inbuilt. So your approach would only be true if you were comparing living in a home with a radon concentration of 100 Bq/m3 'until you were 75' with living in the cave at what ever radon concentration 'until you were 75'. (And I would add that that phrase 'until you were 75' is a massive simplification.) Indeed the topic of the radiological impact of radon is possibly one of the most complex of all radioactive isotopes.

I will admit to receiving a number of comments that the risk explanation in Radon Underground is not very understandable. It was on my list of things to do, but as ever fell off the list during covid. And I am not sure that I now have the strength to revisit the topic. I would be most grateful if someone would like to come to my aid.

For those of you who are curious enough to investigate further, then a paper related to the reference for the various chances of dying of lung cancer by age 75 can be downloaded from here. To complicate matters, the paper which deals with radon in a working environment can be downloaded from here, though you will also need to refer to previous papers including the one here which deals with both working and home environments. As I said it is complex 🤯.

 

[cap n chris]

I would imagine that cavers, generally speaking, will simply ignore the whole topic. Recreational cavers aren't subject to the legislation.

 

[andrewmcleod]

I suspect radon cavers is not the worst poison most intake on caving weekends...

 

[cap n chris]

Indeed, but there is the duty of care owed to the community of cavers by those organisations that exist to look out for them. If people aren't even given basic information such as which popular caves in their region(s) have eye-wateringly high recorded levels of radioactivity, while the national and regional councils have that information might kinda look like gross negligence to most observers, surely. Each region's top ten caves should have the winter/summer readings sent out with the mandatory insurance card, perhaps.

 

[cap n chris]

Avoid Cornish granite:

UKradon - UK maps of radon

www.ukradon.org

Indeedy. IIRC South Trellis Mine (Pitchblende, so hardly surprising really) exceeds the notifiable 300bq/m3 threshold with its staggering 7.4mllion bq/m3. I vaguely recall you could achieve an entire lifetime's acceptable dose in 12 minutes. Don't go down Cornish Mines, kids.