Caving under the ?new normal? how will we know when ?

Brains

Well-known member
Like many I am itching to get back underground again, as soon as is possible.
A cafe before for a piggy bap, and a pub after for a pint are essential for a good day out, so I cant see much happening until I can get those as part of my day out...
Living where I do, the Peak and N Wales, shortly followed by the Three Peaks are my closest caving and mine poking areas at 60-90 minutes drive away, so not really "local" by any definition, but not too far either.
Bring it on!
 

Brains

Well-known member
SamT said:
Borrowed from another forum I participate in, but seems to be applicable to this discussion... pretty eyewatering statistics.

I think whats needed is a huge dollop of perspective.  Give it a couple of weeks, and I reckon nipping out for a quick trip somewhere, will not invoke the wrath of the authorities.  Just keep it low profile and don't have an accident.  ;)  Over the coming months, the world will start turning again and I'm sure we can go about our much miss-maligned and misunderstood hobby. 

This isn't posted to make light of tragic stats nor is it made in the spirit of trying to 'win' any argument. But it was pretty eye-opening to me to find out today from a report in Road cc that deaths of cyclists during the first month of lockdown are over 300% higher than the annual average. 20 deaths during April..  :eek:  :eek:
That's eye-watering. The report lists 15 deaths, then I scrolled down and read the comments  and people have pointed out a further 5 deaths with links to newspaper reports for each.. Crazy.
Deaths are also over 300% higher than the average for April (i.e. April is not on average a bad month) with previous Aprils having, at most, 9 deaths and, at least, 4 deaths.
I instinctively assumed it must be newbie older bikers having heart-attacks. But that isn't it, see below, virtually all collisions involving other vehicle. I also assumed the deaths would mostly be cyclists in London - nope, nationwide on all sorts of roads.
Report here:  https://road.cc/content/news/cyclist-deaths-during-lockdown-2x-average-time-year-272987
Follow up: https://road.cc/content/news/15-cyclists-killed-during-lockdown-what-we-know-so-far-273017

Applying a hierarchy of risk model from near-miss, up through minor accident, major accident and fatality you can begin to imagine how many minor, serious and v.serious injuries there would have been in addition to 20 fatalities. It makes the concerns of MR look a bit trivial in comparison. The relevance to the whole debate around risk of accident, impact on healthcare and risk of transmission to healthcare workers is obvious.

Can people really claim that climbing or hill-walking is, per head, anywhere near this level of impact on the health service and risk of transmission to healthcare workers? What are the per head stats for climbing?


Grim stats:

26 March(link is external) ? A male cyclist aged in his 80s died at Addenbrooke?s Hospital in Cambridge the day after a collision involving a van on the city?s Newmarket Road at the roundabout with Barnwell Road.  No arrest has reportedly been made.

26 March (link is external)? A male cyclist was killed in Moira, near Lisburn, Northern Ireland, after a collision involving a SEAT Leon car. The driver was not reported to have been arrested. The victim's age was not disclosed.

1 April (link is external)? A male cyclist aged 50 died in hospital from injuries he sustained in a collision involving a van in Alford, Lincolnshire, on the morning of 23 March ? later that day, the UK-wide lockdown would be announced. There are no reports of any arrest being made.

3 April(link is external) ? xx xx, aged 57, died in hospital from injuries sustained earlier that day as a result of a collision involving a tractor near Balsall Common, Solihull. The driver was reported to be assisting police with their enquiries.

7 April (link is external)? Metropolitan Police intelligence analyst xx xx, aged 25, was killed in a collision involving two other vehicles in Worcester Park, south west London, as she rode to work. No arrests have been reported.

8 April(link is external) ? A male cyclist aged in his 60s died as a result of a collision involving a van in the village of Compton near Guildford, Surrey. The driver of the van was treated for minor injuries. There are no reports of any arrest.

10 April (link is external)? xx xx, aged 36, was killed in a collision involving a car near Menai Bridge, Anglesey. There are no reports of an arrest having been made.

11 April (link is external)? Cyclist xx xx, aged 40, died in hospital in Cardiff from injuries he sustained the previous day in a collision involving a Peugeot 208 car in Ebbw Vale. Police arrested the driver of the vehicle at the scene on suspicion of causing serious injury by dangerous driving. He was subsequently released while investigations continue.

13 April (link is external)? A male cyclist aged in his 50s died in hospital in Surrey following a collision the previous day in Sunbury. The driver of the vehicle involved, a Mercedes CLK coup?, was arrested at the scene on suspicion of causing serious injury by dangerous driving and was subsequently released under investigation.

15 April(link is external) ? xx xx, aged 67, was killed in Port Talbot, South Wales. There was no report of the driver of the vehicle involved in the incident, a Ford Fiesta, being arrested.

16 April(link is external) ? A cyclist died at the scene of a collision involving a lorry at Market Deeping, Northamptonshire. No arrests have been reported.

17 April (link is external)? An 18-year-old male cyclist died on the A1086 between Blackhall and Horden, County Durham. Police said: ?His death is not being treated as suspicious and a file is being prepared for the coroner.?

18 April (link is external)? xx xx, 44, died in the Queen Elizabeth Hospital, Birmingham, die to injuries sustained in a collision involving a Fiat Punto car in Tamworth, Staffordshire on 15 April. No arrests have been made.

20 April (link is external)? xx xx, aged 80 and a keen cyclist and triathlete, was killed in Hatfield, Hertfordshire. A 23-year-old woman from Hertford was arrested at the scene on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving. She has since been released under investigation.

22 April (link is external)? An unnamed male cyclist, aged 55, died at Dibbles Bridge, North Yorkshire. There was not report of another vehicle being involved and police have appealed for witnesses. The Yorkshire Post reports that two other cyclists have been killed at the same location in recent years, both after being thrown over the bridge parapet onto the riverbed below.
Those are grim stats indeed. Especially as the roads are somewhat quieter than normal for an April. Condolences to the family and friends of all those who suffered.
I know our numbers are (very) low compared to cycling, but even adding in climbing and mountaineering the numbers are far fewer. Obviously the per capita figures are highly relevant, but also the total numbers passing through the hands of the emergency services need to be looked at.
As my late father used to say, when a vehicle and a pushbike go head to head there can only be one "winner" so get yourself a licence son!  :(
 

al

Member
It may not be the case for all bike accidents, but over the last six weeks I've noticed a lot more drivers speeding - presumably because the roads are quieter - and speed could be a factor.
 

alexchien

Member
al said:
It may not be the case for all bike accidents, but over the last six weeks I've noticed a lot more drivers speeding - presumably because the roads are quieter - and speed could be a factor.

Yes, a lot of dickhead drivers about at the moment, putting cyclists at risk.

Caving is much safer.
 

darren

Member
We do of course need to look deeper than just the number of cyclist deaths.it is the number of cyclist deaths per mile that give a better picture.

This is harder to work out, a lot of club cyclists have moved to mainly cycling indoors. This has been more than  made up for by the apparent doubling of the number of people cycling on roads.

There's hundreds of them wobbling all over the place.

 

gingerlycolors

New member
You will find that ALL sport and not just caving (with the exception of the Belarusian Football League) has been put on hold because of Coronavirus.  As we come out of lockdown and move to a "new normal" we will have to wait until the BCA and other groups such as the British Mountaineering Council and British Cave Rescue and Mountain Rescue Councils issue advice and then we may have to confine ourselves to low risk trips not far from home.  As a good day's caving is not complete without a sesh in the pub afterwards it will not really be worth caving until the pubs re-open and unfortunately that will not be for a while yet. Hopefully the vaccine that Astrazenica are working on will work and be available by Autumn and get us out of this purgatory.
 

Alex

Well-known member
I can forgo the pubs if need be. Some like you cave for the social aspect, I guess that makes sense but some cave for exploration or the sport and would probably want to go caving before pubs and other facilities open, which could be a long time off. I don't hold up much hope for a vaccine, I mean there is no vaccine for the common cold and the flu one is only 50% effective. I don't think I could cope with the thought of not caving for at least another 6 months to forever. I would literally go insane, people who know me closely, may notice I have been getting rather angry with everything under the sun (including the sun) recently.

Once the pressure is off, and things ease down, I think social isolating caving trips would be okay, but I agree you should not be rushing off to bottom Quaking on the first day back.
 

royfellows

Well-known member
There are people out there in a worse situation.

Grappling sports such as Judo could be finished for the foreseeable future. Aikido which I do could maybe come back in as weapons only nights towards year end, as maybe karate with no partnered techniques, I can practice both of these on my own at home anyway as long as I dont practice doing something incorrectly.  :LOL:

So keep your chin up and hope for the best.
 
If we a re looking at risk in terms of death per hour of activity then horse riding tops the bill and then some yet this is currently allowed. Much more risky than almost *every* other form of exercise. In wales we will of course have to wait until indoor exercise is approved before caving can start !
 

cavemanmike

Well-known member
I agree with mountaipenguin.
With regards to horseriding, my daughter nearly lost her life a few years back and almost had her ear ripped off in another horse related accident and yet my wife and I are quite often at odds as she is under the impression caving and climbing are MUCH more dangerous than horseriding.
Oh, I've never (touch wood) had a caving accident.
Funny that isn't it
:blink:
 

Duck ditch

New member
This reminds me of a discussion we had in the club hut some time ago.  I felt that I had a 99 % chance of coming out of a cave alive on every trip.  Others put there chances lower on just a standard trip.  I felt I wouldn?t go do a trip if I felt I had a 10% chance of death.

For gods sake don?t Make a mistake caving.  The media would kill the sport if there was a rescue in the next few weeks .  Even turning up at hospital with a caving injury would be a disaster for the sport I feel.
 

mikem

Well-known member
Cyclists have massively increased exposure to risk at the moment - as stated already, some cars are speeding more than usual, because there are fewer of them & giving riders less clearance (several reports of them being forced off the road, including injuries). Also lots of people, who are out of practice being on roads, are now cycling (& going further than normal).

There is the comparison thread elsewhere on here about accidents per hour of different activities...

& on the comment about excessive numbers of appliances turning up for accidents - that's more about them justifying their existence, rather than necessities of dealing with the incident at hand.
 

alastairgott

Well-known member
Nearly got flattened on my bike near leek by a milk lorry on a country road at the weekend.
Hands up! I'm not normally on the road every weekend but gotta do something!
 

Brains

Well-known member
Still not all bad... Just seen a post saying a reality TV thing called "love island" wont be done till 2021.
Silver lining and all that?
 

maxb727

Member
Everyone in Somerset seems to own a bike now and although this makes the roads busier and not everyone has the best road awareness, I hope some lasting benefits come from all this for the 'normal' family.

More quality family time, exploring our local areas instead of always jumping in the car, less commuting for parents and a generally fitter/healthier family going out to exercise together as something fun to do.

With regards to caving......we are a minority sport, the majority of the country probably don't care and while we might be really missing our main hobby, it is a small sacrifice for a relatively short space of time based on average life expectancy. I guess access to some caves will be out of our control (I don't want to start an access debate - please control yourselves), and maybe it is a personal moral decision as to whether the trip we are doing has a high likelihood of risk to cause unnecessary trouble for anyone else (rescue, medical resources etc)

It might be hard for some as we are all different, but make the most of this time to discover something you wouldn't normally have time to do - be thankful for what we can do and at least we are all in this together.

Stay safe and well  :beer:
 

tamarmole

Active member
I wonder if I can claim the prize for the greatest show of non caving will power. 

Just before lockdown  my mine project went; I climbed a dodgy stope into an open looking level.  As the climb was not well protected I decided to leave the push into new ground until next week when I could put some decent protection in, then lockdown kicked in.  Being a fairly responsible sort of chap I have given up underground adventures for the duration.  As I am now on furlough I am doing an awful lot of walking.  My usual walk takes me right past my project and I usually stop and have a chat with the landowner who is extremely enthusiastic about what I am doing in his mine.  This must surely come under the heading of cruel and unusual punishment!
 

Jenny P

Active member
What you can do in the way of caving may very well depend on where you live in relation to caving areas.  There is a difference in being able to cycle or drive for, say, an hour and go down a cave (or even walk there), as opposed to living 4 or 5 hours drive away, which makes it impractical to do even day trips.  If you are lucky enough to live in or close to a caving area, it's a whole different kettle of fish.  It also makes a difference whether you own all your own ropes and tackle or whether, like many younger cavers, you rely on borrowing club tackle from a Club Hut which is currently inaccessible.

Club Huts are included in the lock-down and, since they and climbing club huts are basically considered  "hostels" (like the YHA and independent bunkhouses), we may well find there are quite strict criteria set by HMG on when they may re-open.  In the mean time, clubs who own huts are faced with paying the necessary expenses for upkeep with no income from "Hut Fees" from their own members or any visiting clubs.  Many clubs have been offered a grant as they are considered a "small business" by the local rating authority - but this then brings further worries about "taxable income", etc.  It would be useful to have some authoritative guidance from someone who understands the tax and accounting side of this.
 

ttxela2

Active member
I'm keen to get back to any number of things, underground trips, motorhome holidays, kayaking on the river, etc. etc.

At the moment it still seems no-one (understandably) can make any reliable prediction. I've read of campsites that state authoritatively that they are re-opening on the first of June and other folks confidently predicting the current rules won't change until next year.

In many corners of the interweb a predictable routine is unfolding where one enquiring soul will tentatively express their ponderings on when their favourite pastime will become permissible once more only to be rounded on by furious, outraged & indignant characters condemning their selfishness at even considering such a thing whilst other reckless mavericks declare they've never stopped and don't believe any restrictions were warranted in the first place.

For my part I'm currently siding with caution, much as I am keen to get back to stuff I'm reasonably persuaded that a sudden return too quickly to life as we once knew it may be disastrous.

I haven't heard anything more definitive than 'not quite yet' in answer to this sort of question  :cautious:
 
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