Child friendly caving clubs
- Thread starter Katie
- Start date
Andy Sparrow
Active member
It's long been my opinion that British caving would benefit enormously by clubs and professionals working harmoniously. I've been introducing young (and older) people to caving for decades and it's apparent to me that to the novice who will progress to being a caver is probably one in a thousand. It's not that people, young and old, don't thoroughly enjoy their first caving experience - the vast majority do. They also enjoy their first taste of surfing, mountain biking, kite-surfing and a host of other activities that didn't exist in my early caving days. Most people don't want to specialise in one activity when there are so many amazing things to do! Clubs can spend a considerable amount of time introducing novices, time they might prefer to spend on more challenging trips. I say let the professionals do novice caving, but let's create a pathway from instructor to club. We don't need to encourage people to go caving - we need to facilitate them to carry on caving!
Here's my suggestion... Firstly clubs need to decide if they are in or out when it comes to novices. I think clubs feel obliged sometimes to claim to be novice friendly when in reality they'd rather spend their time in other ways. So, first things first, be realistic as to whether or not your club has the commitment and resources to run beginners trips. If the answer is yes then prepare an induction program. I would advise that clubs only offer one or two trips before requiring some commitment from the novice in terms of membership and/or investing in their own equipment - have a cut off to make sure that your novice is not coming back multiple times, expecting to be lent kit and getting the services of an outdoor centre for free! Clubs that make these commitments should the be listed in a new BCA leaflet specifically aimed at those who have had a caving experience and want more. This leaflet should be distributed to centres and caving instructors ready to be handed out to anybody who expresses an interest.
Here's my suggestion... Firstly clubs need to decide if they are in or out when it comes to novices. I think clubs feel obliged sometimes to claim to be novice friendly when in reality they'd rather spend their time in other ways. So, first things first, be realistic as to whether or not your club has the commitment and resources to run beginners trips. If the answer is yes then prepare an induction program. I would advise that clubs only offer one or two trips before requiring some commitment from the novice in terms of membership and/or investing in their own equipment - have a cut off to make sure that your novice is not coming back multiple times, expecting to be lent kit and getting the services of an outdoor centre for free! Clubs that make these commitments should the be listed in a new BCA leaflet specifically aimed at those who have had a caving experience and want more. This leaflet should be distributed to centres and caving instructors ready to be handed out to anybody who expresses an interest.
cavemanmike
Well-known member
Our club offers noobies /novises 3 user friendly trips before we ask for full membership, we also make sure we send them a membership welcome package to encourage them on board
My club, Orpheus, receives a number of enquiries every year and these can vary tremendously.
Some are from people who have never tried caving but want to have a go - so we are able to lend them kit and take them on a relatively simple trip, ensuring they have Temporary BCA Membership (which lasts for 3 months and up to 4 weekend/trips) and we also give them information on how they can go on to join the Club. A few of these do stay on and join but most seem to be trying a number of different "adventure sports" and after just one trip decide caving isn't for them.
We also have an increasing number of people referred to us who have tried caving with a local Outdoor Pursuits organisation and want to do more: these we find do tend to want to stick with it and join as Prospective Members within their 3 months' trial. Some of these are young people and, since the Club decided a few years ago that we could allow under-16's as Junior Members, we have been able to help them. However, we do expect that their parents will be involved in all caving trips as we don't currently have any club members with appropriate CRB checks or other qualifications. (All but one of our Junior Members has now progressed to become an adult Full Member but we are still happy to take on juniors.)
We are also finding a number of older people contact us to say that they were cavers in their youth, or at university, and dropped out but now have more spare time and want to take it up again seriously. These come with a definite idea of rejoining the caving scene and most become Members fairly quickly.
In the past we have found that many people who joined as older teenagers lasted only two or three years as keen cavers, specialising in the hardest and deepest caves, and once they'd cracked all the really tough trips, dropped out of caving altogether as they acquired jobs which took up more time, got married, etc. One or two of of these have now returned to the fold, retaining fond memories of their time as active cavers.
As Andy points out, there are many more adventurous activities for people to try out which simply didn't exist even a few years ago. Many of these are high-profile, involve brightly coloured clothes or equipment and are very "visible" to spectators - these attract young people in a way that caving never can. The other point is that those who stick with caving often go on to take an interest in a particular aspect of caving which adds to their enjoyment: surveying, digging, amateur research, photography, etc. They almost always take a keen interest in cave conservation because they are in it for the long term and have seen the damage that can be done by thoughless behaviour or sheer pressure of numbers. So some might consider it's in our own interest not to attract too many new cavers?
Some are from people who have never tried caving but want to have a go - so we are able to lend them kit and take them on a relatively simple trip, ensuring they have Temporary BCA Membership (which lasts for 3 months and up to 4 weekend/trips) and we also give them information on how they can go on to join the Club. A few of these do stay on and join but most seem to be trying a number of different "adventure sports" and after just one trip decide caving isn't for them.
We also have an increasing number of people referred to us who have tried caving with a local Outdoor Pursuits organisation and want to do more: these we find do tend to want to stick with it and join as Prospective Members within their 3 months' trial. Some of these are young people and, since the Club decided a few years ago that we could allow under-16's as Junior Members, we have been able to help them. However, we do expect that their parents will be involved in all caving trips as we don't currently have any club members with appropriate CRB checks or other qualifications. (All but one of our Junior Members has now progressed to become an adult Full Member but we are still happy to take on juniors.)
We are also finding a number of older people contact us to say that they were cavers in their youth, or at university, and dropped out but now have more spare time and want to take it up again seriously. These come with a definite idea of rejoining the caving scene and most become Members fairly quickly.
In the past we have found that many people who joined as older teenagers lasted only two or three years as keen cavers, specialising in the hardest and deepest caves, and once they'd cracked all the really tough trips, dropped out of caving altogether as they acquired jobs which took up more time, got married, etc. One or two of of these have now returned to the fold, retaining fond memories of their time as active cavers.
As Andy points out, there are many more adventurous activities for people to try out which simply didn't exist even a few years ago. Many of these are high-profile, involve brightly coloured clothes or equipment and are very "visible" to spectators - these attract young people in a way that caving never can. The other point is that those who stick with caving often go on to take an interest in a particular aspect of caving which adds to their enjoyment: surveying, digging, amateur research, photography, etc. They almost always take a keen interest in cave conservation because they are in it for the long term and have seen the damage that can be done by thoughless behaviour or sheer pressure of numbers. So some might consider it's in our own interest not to attract too many new cavers?
When you say under 16's do you mean under 18's or are 16-18 year olds in another category? I remember this distinction was made at Charterhouse but I didn't like to ask them what it meant. I am a little confused by some of the other comments made above on the matter.
Cheers
Cheers
Yes, that is what I was trying to get straight myself. As I read it there is no distinction in law that makes anyone 16-18 and different from an under 18. Or is there?
This is then just a distinction made by a club or ACB? Which I guess they are entitled to do or is that discriminatory?
This is then just a distinction made by a club or ACB? Which I guess they are entitled to do or is that discriminatory?
JoshW
Well-known member
Badlad said:
I am of the same understanding as you are.
It's not a can of worms I'm willing to open in public. As I understand it there is some work being done on that front, but being aware of the quantity of bad blood over the issue I don't want it clogging up what could be a very informative post (provided people stop spewing stuff as the gospel truth without having actually looked at it, or spoken to people who know about it).
There is a difference between 16/17 year olds and under 16 in many areas, particularly child protection and autonomy. My kids went from being unable to do work experience at 15 because they were too young to needing a DBS at 16 because they were suddenly a threat.
Teachers in our family will not touch a child in school in almost any circumstance due to the ramifications and all too prevalent legal issues.
If you follow this logic to the bitter end then sixth formers should have DBS?s to be at school. It?s nonsense. My kids have already done multiple DBS?s without reaching 21.
I would focus on colleges and universtities for long term caver supply. Half of school leavers now go.
Teachers in our family will not touch a child in school in almost any circumstance due to the ramifications and all too prevalent legal issues.
If you follow this logic to the bitter end then sixth formers should have DBS?s to be at school. It?s nonsense. My kids have already done multiple DBS?s without reaching 21.
I would focus on colleges and universtities for long term caver supply. Half of school leavers now go.
JoshW
Well-known member
With respect to looking after 15 year olds and 17 year olds legally there is no difference (as I understand it), they are both 'minors' and so the relevant safeguarding measures should take place.Fjell said:
these two points seem unrelated? I'll answer the point I think you're getting at? At some age DBS' need to start to be a requirement, and it makes sense to be the age at which you can start working and being in charge of young people.
This isn't a new thing. It's always been advised not to touch children unless required. It's common sense.
Generally DBS's are only required for those likely to be in charge of young people or left 1 on 1 with young people. Obviously not the case at schools, so this argument is nonsense. The DBS system is a bit shit anyway to be honest, but it's the only system that there is. It would be good if an employer/similar could do a check at any time (with no cost) so that you can get live updates, instead you've got a system where someone can have an active DBS check that all it really means is the person hadn't been caught at the time of the check.
By the time someone is at college 16/17 they've had access to plenty of other activities and caving gets left either as a side hobby, or tried once but never returned to as there are other hobbies there. Climbing and other sports are able to hook people from a young age so why shouldn't caving.
This is all my understanding of things, but I'm no legal expert, and will happily be corrected on any of these points (except for that last one).
LarryFatcat
Active member
Peak Caving Club currently has 22 under 18 members. We produce a "Child Friendly Meets List" for our parent/guardian members as an extract from our 100+ meets/year.
FabianE
Member
Thank you
We are lucky to have trip leaders who hold qualifications such as the LCMLA and CIC.
The majority of our trip leaders also work in the industry and are therefore used to working with younger cavers and hold the necessary DBS checks.
JoshW
Well-known member
Not that these are required in any shape or form in recreational caving!Thank you
We are lucky to have trip leaders who hold qualifications such as the LCMLA and CIC.
FabianE
Member
They aren't that's right.
We do however use the DCA Coaching Scheme in our club and for example accept the LCMLA or CIC training as proof of competence... of course other options to prove competence are accepted.
Especially when it comes to taking novices underground or even progressing to SRT it would be prudent to know that the leader running the trip or training is utilising safe / best practice to ensure no mishaps happen in the future.
ttxela2
Active member
I was fortunate enough that my daughter just missed the introduction of most of this 'stuff' she came on club trips with me just when I judged it appropriate. Underground we just chose where we went and who we went with based on a mixture of precvious experience and gut feeling. We stayed in caving huts and generally took part in whatever High-Jinks went on. . Mostly this was (in my view) pretty harmless stuff and if it got too rowdy later on then we just retreated to bed but this was a very rare ocurrence. Sometimes her mates from school joined us with not much more than a quick chat with a parent to make sure they knew where we were going and everyone had contact details.
Just as she became old enough to be less interested in coming along and more interested in doing her own thing I was aware of much more rules and structure coming in, club officers were appointed to oversee such things and forms were produced to fill in and sign - I'm pretty sure the idea of randomly turning up with someone elses child in tow as well would no longer fly.
Interestingly I don't think any actual laws or rules changed (this would be around 10 years ago) just peoples interpretation of existing stuff.
Undoubtedly it's a good thing - it's hard to disagree with vulnerable people being protected more, it's just a different zeitgeist I guess.
Just as she became old enough to be less interested in coming along and more interested in doing her own thing I was aware of much more rules and structure coming in, club officers were appointed to oversee such things and forms were produced to fill in and sign - I'm pretty sure the idea of randomly turning up with someone elses child in tow as well would no longer fly.
Interestingly I don't think any actual laws or rules changed (this would be around 10 years ago) just peoples interpretation of existing stuff.
Undoubtedly it's a good thing - it's hard to disagree with vulnerable people being protected more, it's just a different zeitgeist I guess.
