Cliff Cavern Ropes
- Thread starter MikeyP
- Start date
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Are those really still the original 1980s bolts and rope on the old route to Puzzling Evidence? They were mainly climbing bolts in choss that never got improved. That was a dangerous route even when it was freshly explored; despite Henry's comments, my advice would be NOT to use any original in situ gear, even for a one off derigging effort. If it can't be derigged safely (and I understand the advisability of clearing up for environmental reasons) then maybe it'd be better to install signs at each end stating "Do not use"? If anyone is really intent on removing that old stuff, perhaps it'd be safest to have the extra protection of a dynamic climbing rope and insert a few new bolts to act as protection - just in case.
To try and answer MikeyP's comments; the end of Cliffhanger, although a major and somewhat daunting job, is possibly one of the best leads in the system. You're in the roof of a huge passage and the sump is only there because that area of the passage happens to be full of sediment. If a way were to be found to get rid of the sump (major channelling effort or clever permanent siphon pipe?) then digging would be fairly easy. I reckon it's the best hope for a bypass to Main Rising sump (the end of which is a mobile sand and gravel floor at -74 m; not really a viable prospect for digging).
In the other direction across the top of Cliff Cavern, Joint Effort is a similarly huge old passage as far as the Puzzling Evidence chamber. Beyond there the passage is immature both before and after the sump - so one has to ask the obvious question "Where does the big development, which emerges through the boulder floor of Puzzling evidence, originate from?". I've always thought the main contender was Western Highway, if it rears upwards beyond the present limit. Of course there may be much more to the story than just that (as I'm sure Henry would be able to explain) but that's my three pence worth.
To try and answer MikeyP's comments; the end of Cliffhanger, although a major and somewhat daunting job, is possibly one of the best leads in the system. You're in the roof of a huge passage and the sump is only there because that area of the passage happens to be full of sediment. If a way were to be found to get rid of the sump (major channelling effort or clever permanent siphon pipe?) then digging would be fairly easy. I reckon it's the best hope for a bypass to Main Rising sump (the end of which is a mobile sand and gravel floor at -74 m; not really a viable prospect for digging).
In the other direction across the top of Cliff Cavern, Joint Effort is a similarly huge old passage as far as the Puzzling Evidence chamber. Beyond there the passage is immature both before and after the sump - so one has to ask the obvious question "Where does the big development, which emerges through the boulder floor of Puzzling evidence, originate from?". I've always thought the main contender was Western Highway, if it rears upwards beyond the present limit. Of course there may be much more to the story than just that (as I'm sure Henry would be able to explain) but that's my three pence worth.
pwhole
Well-known member
I would hazard a guess that there's more still to be found than has been found in that area - there are huge 'holes' in the various surveys between Pindale and Eldon Hill that I'm inclined to believe will contain major voids and new passage, both natural and man-made. It can't all be solid rock, as given the known system so far, certain circumstances - like strong NW cross-jointing at regular intervals - are likely to repeat. And bedding planes. mineral veins and lava horizons will control hydrology in a similar fashion in the areas as yet undiscovered.
We just haven't found the connections yet
We just haven't found the connections yet
Big Jim
Member
It is small beyond puzzling evidence but beyond the sump, spidros aven is quite sizeable again. Well worth a look up there if you can get the henrys syphon going (assuming its still in there). I think Henry did have a lead to push in spidros but don't think he ever got back to it. Smashing trip up there all the same though wouldn't recommend the traverse on the old bolts - we did it about 4 years ago and all had brown pants after Im glad Henry has finally got it re-bolted.
Im glad Henry has finally got it re-bolted.
Rob
Well-known member
Your wording suggests a flow direction (i.e. from Puzzling Evidence towards Cliff Cavern). Maybe this wording was unintended, either way i believe that the flow responsible for the main formation of Joint Effort it is almost certainly the other way (i.e. heading East from Cliffhanger Sump towards Puzzling Evidence, probably before Cliff Cavern existed). Diagnostics on this idea are difficult however because there are a number of ages of formation going on East of Cliff Cavern making it messy.Pitlamp said:
Western Highway may well be hidden in the floor of Joint Effort, as Pitlamp suggests, and this would explain the passage size drop. However a few things may indicate otherwise:
Firstly, it would make one of the most hard earned (yet almost totally pointless) round trips in the country!
Secondly, we know that the 2008 Donatellas stuff (and hence Cascade Aven and a portion of Calcite Aven) is formed from phreatic waters uprising from the West, and falling down Cascade and Calcite Aven. This formation quite possibly comes from Spidros Aven, or the upstream continuation of PE Sump when the flow was in a different direction. The end sump in Donatellas is 8m higher than Puzzling Evidence Sump and <50m further East, and the overflow is a further 20m higher. Therefore it suggests a time when everything to the West will have been totally underwater, but things to the East and below Donatellas were forming vadose. If a massive conduit such as Western Highway existed between Calcite Aven and Joint Effort the water levels would have been more balanced.
Finally, Calcite Aven, Western Highway, and Donatellas Series are all on a fault formation with a bearing of ~67?, with an off vertical tilt of 20?. Whereas Cliffhanger to Puzzling Evidence is on an almost perfectly vertical formation with a bearing of 80? (just like the JH Cartgate). I'm sure these are two different features. The intersection of these two formations has only been seen at the end of Donatellas Series, where the cave totally changes. Based on this idea, if these geological features carry on past each other there's a high chance the caves could miss!
Probably a good time to promote the Castleton Caves Survex Project, without which this much bullshit simply couldn't be made up!
http://www.peakdistrictcaving.info/caves-of-castleton-survex-project.htm
For those who still refuse to download Survex, here's the most uptodate plan of the area in question:
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Rob - just to clarify - I agree with you that flow came eastwards out from Cliffhanger, over the top of what is now Cliff Cavern, along Joint Effort, into Puzzling Evidence chamber - then down into the floor to form Western Highway.
I'm not sure I can agree with Big Jim's assessment though. Yes, Spidros Aven is biggER than the sump which we dived through to discover it. But vertical sections of caves formed on joints / faults / veins in North Derbyshire caves are often bigger than the bedding plane guided passages which link them. By comparison (with Cliffhanger, Joint Effort and Puzzling Evidence) Spidros Aven is tiny and immature. There's no doubt that the main development is lost in the floor of Puzzling Evidence.
The way on upwards in Spidros Aven is tiny and vadose. It looks like a bit of rock removal might allow entry to the cavity above but I'd not expect major cave to be found. Then again stranger things have happened . . . .
The Cliffhanger Sump is the place to be. Get rid of it and you'd have one of the juiciest digs in the Peak.
I'm not sure I can agree with Big Jim's assessment though. Yes, Spidros Aven is biggER than the sump which we dived through to discover it. But vertical sections of caves formed on joints / faults / veins in North Derbyshire caves are often bigger than the bedding plane guided passages which link them. By comparison (with Cliffhanger, Joint Effort and Puzzling Evidence) Spidros Aven is tiny and immature. There's no doubt that the main development is lost in the floor of Puzzling Evidence.
The way on upwards in Spidros Aven is tiny and vadose. It looks like a bit of rock removal might allow entry to the cavity above but I'd not expect major cave to be found. Then again stranger things have happened . . . .
The Cliffhanger Sump is the place to be. Get rid of it and you'd have one of the juiciest digs in the Peak.
MikeyP
Member
This is all really intriguing - struggling a bit to keep up! Never even occurred to me that Cliffhanger would have flowed across into Joint Effort/PE (with cliff cavern itself being the later edition).
And then if as Rob implies that WH and JE are heading on a slightly different bearing and may in fact miss each other, makes it all the more interesting. (If I got that right?)
Either way I agree about cliffhanger sump!
Wish I?d been a bit more observant now when I was there? It certainly wouldn?t take much to lower the initial part of the passage leading to it, as it was primarily thick sand and silt (much like Treasury). Beneath that I?d imagine it would be rather tougher going, but certainly not impossible.
40m to a shingle choke and then who knows!
The pipe was still there at PE sump by the way.
And then if as Rob implies that WH and JE are heading on a slightly different bearing and may in fact miss each other, makes it all the more interesting. (If I got that right?)
Either way I agree about cliffhanger sump!
Wish I?d been a bit more observant now when I was there? It certainly wouldn?t take much to lower the initial part of the passage leading to it, as it was primarily thick sand and silt (much like Treasury). Beneath that I?d imagine it would be rather tougher going, but certainly not impossible.
40m to a shingle choke and then
who knows! The pipe was still there at PE sump by the way.
graham
New member
A quick, general point. Size is not a good indication of relationship when it come s to cave passages, there are a number of mechanisms by which passage size may increase or, indeed, decrease along a single stream route.
Size is, of course related to discharge, but not just to that; the other factors presence of guiding fractures, hydraulic gradient, solubility, changes in piezometric surface over time, etc. will also have siginificant effects.
Or, in simple terms, just 'cos it's big now doesn't mean it'll be as big a bit downstream (though it may be).
Oh, and by the way, Pitlamp, I hate the term 'immature'. Cavers use it to mean 'small and scrotty' without any real understanding of relative age.
Size is, of course related to discharge, but not just to that; the other factors presence of guiding fractures, hydraulic gradient, solubility, changes in piezometric surface over time, etc. will also have siginificant effects.
Or, in simple terms, just 'cos it's big now doesn't mean it'll be as big a bit downstream (though it may be).
Oh, and by the way, Pitlamp, I hate the term 'immature'. Cavers use it to mean 'small and scrotty' without any real understanding of relative age.
EwanCameron
New member
There's some right caving experts on this forum I love it!!!
EwanCameron
New member
Anyone got and really good basic information about cave formation and geology they can email me ???
Pitlamp
Well-known member
OK Graham, how about "significantly less mature"?
All that matters in this context is the relative amount of development. The sump leading to Spidros Aven and the Aven itself represent a little bit of tiny cave, unrelated to the major development associated with Puzzling Evidence, etc.
I'm sure most diggers would have a pretty good idea what I mean.
All that matters in this context is the relative amount of development. The sump leading to Spidros Aven and the Aven itself represent a little bit of tiny cave, unrelated to the major development associated with Puzzling Evidence, etc.
I'm sure most diggers would have a pretty good idea what I mean.
Rob
Well-known member
Graham, we all know what Pitlamp is talking about. Immature works fine. If you had been there you would understand.graham said:
Far from basic, but if you've got a long term view on cave exploration, this is a good book to try to get your head around what's going on.EwanCameron said:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Karst-Hydrogeology-Geomorphology-Derek-Ford/dp/0470849975/
EwanCameron
New member
Thanks Rob but it for kids might be a bit much but I might look at it for me